[Strategic] List etiquette

Steve Coast steve at asklater.com
Sat May 21 19:04:38 BST 2011


You're right Frederik, we shouldn't do anything <rolls eyes>.

On 5/21/2011 10:17 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Steven Feldman wrote:
>> See http://opengeodata.org/osm-mailing-lists-time-for-a-change
>
> That's a very poisonous article. Many people seem to believe that the 
> fact that "the lists" are somehow not doing what is expected of them - 
> whatever that is - comes down to a handful of individuals who have a 
> problem with their temper or attitude.
>
> I think that is a dangerous simplification. I think that people have 
> been talking themselves into a lynch mob mood for quite a while now, 
> and by now everybody seems to think that whatever "problem" we have 
> with our mailing lists (or even, whatever problem we have with 
> newbies, with attracting new mappers, or something) is down to three 
> or four individuals, and that everything will just magically become 
> better once we've got rid of them.
>
> I don't think this is true. For example, since Anthony has already 
> been mentioned: Firstly, I have heard nobody say that legal-talk has 
> become a better place since he's gone; instead, legal-talk is 
> unchangedly being proclaimed as a place where newbies daren't enter (a 
> self-fulfilling prophecy if there ever was one).
>
> Same for the talk list, where Anthony is not banned as far as I know, 
> even so his latest post was one month ago, and this has not kept Steve 
> Coast from still claiming, today, in the above article, that the list 
> is broken.
>
> So, one down, three to go; let's moderate away the next most annoying 
> people, and everything will be all right, no?
>
> I'm 100% sure that nothing will improve. After kicking out those 
> people who everybody thinks are the root of all evil, the mailing 
> lists will still not work. What to do? Identify the next most annoying 
> people and kick them too, because by then it is dogma that everything 
> that goes wrong must be down to a few annoying people, right? And so on.
>
> It is possible, and I say this very carefully and with healthy 
> skepticism, that moderation and policy enforcement may be one part in 
> a healthy climate on the mailing lists. But they are certainly not the 
> easy fix for all problems.
>
> Stretegic is to be applauded for the thoughtful approach that Mikel 
> posted, including his point 1 ("have people who care set better 
> example"). Because I know a lot of good people who do nothing but 
> whine about "the lists" (and equally "the wiki") and when asked why 
> they have withdrawn from the social medium that the lists are, they 
> say that they couldn't bear the madness. But I have a suspicion that a 
> good many of them are just using the "bad climate" as a convenient 
> excuse because large mailing lists take a lot of time...
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>



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