[Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Apollinaris Schoell aschoell at gmail.com
Wed Aug 1 18:37:10 BST 2012

On Aug 1, 2012, at 7:01 AM, Simone Saviolo wrote:
> I use mostly JOSM which has good relation support. But still it's a pain and a challenge. Just downloading a huge relation takes too much time. No editor can fix this because it's the nature of the data model. 
> What's painful and challenging in double clicking and using a window which is exactly the same tag table as the one you have for nodes and ways, plus an obvious self-explaining list of members with roles?

Obviously you haven't used it enough otherwise you would know better. 
It had so many bugs over time the list of broken relations is endless. Read the archives and you will see. 
It has been improved over the years but still far from comparable to editing nodes and ways. I have used many types of CAD tools and trained people using them. If you or I am able to use JOSM doesn't mean others can. If I see a annoying or tricky use than it's a showstopper for non tech people. Many osm novices have a hard time to understand the very basics. Relation editing is a guarantee to scare them away and we loose valuable mappers. 

> really? I can't see that. there are many map rendering solutions, routing algorithms for desktop, web service, mobile devices ... Must be a miracle that they all function.
> btw I am not aware of many using relations. 
> What would consumers' assumptions be, reasonably? That any ways with the same value in a given tag would have to be considered a single thing? I have examples of separate streets with the same name in the same city, not separate, non-connected parts of the same street, mind you. A relation here would describe the reality without fail, and much more elegantly. . 

elegance is the last thing osm has ever tried to achieve. I heard rumors this will be changed in the API x.x.x release but it requires  Hurd and has to wait until it's released

> nothing wrong with that. But be aware that all these local communities have to come up with their own solutions to use the data.  Is the Czech community large enough to offer maps, routing in all flavors and other useful applications? probably it's much easier to go with the flow and bear a with some oddities.
> According to your reasoning, Germans should tell us how to map because they make tools and consumers. Is this correct?

no not at all. where did I mention Germans? If you have a problem with german mappers and tools feel free to write your own new rant somewhere else.
And for the facts: germans make tools and consumers??? where did you get this from. have you spent more than 5 min to understand what osm is and how it works and who started it, who wrote all the core infrastructure, who maintains it and what tools are out there. Even JOSM is a lot less german than you think.

> Regards,
> Simone 
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