[Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Peter Wendorff wendorff at uni-paderborn.de
Wed Aug 1 22:41:52 BST 2012

Am 01.08.2012 22:56, schrieb "Petr Morávek [Xificurk]":
> Peter Wendorff wrote:
>> If you rise a flag for the consumers side and decrease the mapping
>> useability with that, these mappers will go away - and afterwards most
>> probably the data consumers will follow, because there's no (updated)
>> data any more in a reasonable quality and quantity.
> I did not say that perfect usability should be our holy grail, or that
> we should do everything we can to make things easy for consumers. That's
> the other extreme that's not healthy either.
nice to agree here ;)
> I simply object to the claim that consumers are "totally unimportant".
> If we can agree this is a wrong attitude, I would be happy ;-)
>> I don't know any project that has not been build because of the complex
>> or unuseable data model.
>> Do you have examples for "amazing tools" that have been stopped in
>> development due to the data model?
> Are you seriously asking me the question that falls into the same
> category as "When was the last time you saw an invisible dragon?" :-)
Well, I don't think we don't provide enough possibilities to get in contact.
Mailing lists, forum, local meetings...
Whoever wants to do such a project usually has to get in contact with 
the data providers, and there it's independent if it's OSM or navteq or 
anyone else.
At Navteq and other companies you even are not able to get a glance on 
the data without getting in contact to them.
OSM provides you the data even anonymous, and you're free to ask for 
help and further information.

Hundrets get in contact with osm as newbies  every week, I'm sure, I 
think, around 10 we have in average per week, that visit the german IRC 
channel alone and ask questions, as mappers, as possible web map users, 
as possible coders, as possible companies thinking about more 
sophisticated solutions.

Some go away again, some even ask for someone doing something for money, 
some stay as active contributors, and some provide patches and ideas to 
If someone wants to do an "amazing tool" using geodata alone without 
getting in contact, he most probably will fail - independent of the data 
source used.
So I claim that most of these tools either didn't think about using OSM 
seriously or they don't exist, but they are, I guess, not purely invisible.
> This will happen if we will call consumers "totally unimportant" and if
> we will produce _unnecessarily_ hard to use data just because "we can"
> and "they must deal with it".
Nobody want's to produce "unneccessarily hard to use data", but it's 
still your unproven and for some of us unbelieved claim that it's easier 
to use with relations, summarized over data consumers and mappers.


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