[Tagging] [Talk-us] First bona fide mini-roundabout spotted

Martin Vonwald imagic.osm at gmail.com
Wed May 9 09:41:34 BST 2012


I guess(!) the discussion is so complicated, because some people
misinterpreted for whatever reason a mini-roundabout with a small
roundabout, tagged it as mini and now don't want to fix all their
existing tags.

I can understand (but not support) the latter, but I don't understand
why we shouldn't tag new minis correctly. Maybe because drawing a
circle and tagging it with highway=* and junction=roundabout is more
work than simply placing a node and adding highway=mini_roundabout?
This might be a reason, but it doesn't make it right.

Does a plugin for JOSM exist, which replaces a single node on the
connection of two ways, by a circle? Shouldn't be too hard to
implement and might convince a few.

Martin

2012/5/9 Volker Schmidt <voschix at gmail.com>:
> I don't see why this discussion is so complicated.
> OSM tags are based on British English terms for historic reasons.
> In that contest there is a clean-cut distinction between a roundabout and a
> mini-roundabout:
> Quote from Wikipedia: "Mini-roundabouts can be a painted circle or a low
> dome but must be fully traversable." (from:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini_roundabout#Mini-roundabouts)
> A small round-about, that has an obstacle in the middle (example:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pacionfi.JPG), is not a mini_roundabout,
> but a roundabout, albeit a small one.
>
> Volker
> (Padova, Itlay)
>
>
> On 9 May 2012 04:10, Steve Bennett <stevagewp at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> The problems with this tag are the same with most tags. The history
>> goes something like:
>>
>> 1) The original creator has a very specific real-world object in mind:
>> painted roundabout patterns on intersections in their local area
>> 2) Other people in the local area recognise this real-world concept
>> and also apply the tag.
>> 3) Soon it makes its way into editors, renderers etc.
>> 4) People in other parts of the world see this tag and think they should
>> use it.
>> 5) They deduce what they think are the salient features: it's small,
>> it's painted, you can drive over it physically, you can drive over it
>> legally...
>> 6) Different kinds of real world objects get mapped with the tag, that
>> include some, but not all of the above salient features (eg,
>> roundabouts you can drive over, but are physically raised; or
>> roundabouts that are just painted but legally you must not drive over
>> them...)
>> 7) People notice the contradiction between the (poor) documentation
>> and current practice, and try to change it
>> 8) People who used the tag in step 6 object, because now it doesn't
>> match the way *they* use the tag.
>>
>> I'm not sure what the moral of the story here is, except that whoever
>> creates the tag originally has the easiest job, because the tags match
>> up beautifully with their local environment. (See highway=footway,
>> highway=cycleway, highway=bridleway, which actually appear as words on
>> signs in the UK - but compare the difficulty of applying them to
>> somewhere like Australia)
>>
>> I kind of think the only real solution is to have a fairly loose
>> coupling between regions about the definition of tags, and tight
>> cohesion within regions. So highway=mini_roundabout should universally
>> mean something like "small roundabout you could probably drive over",
>> but within a single region (either a country, or perhaps smaller), it
>> should have a much stricter definition, depending on local road laws,
>> building practices etc.
>>
>> (We do this already with tags like highway=motorway and
>> highway=cycleway, but we could be much more systematic.)
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 2:18 AM, Erik Johansson <erjohan at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 11:54 PM, Philip Barnes <phil at trigpoint.me.uk>
>> > wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 2012-05-07 at 13:30 -0700, Paul Johnson wrote:
>> >>> On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Nathan Mills <nathan at nwacg.net> wrote:
>> >>> > So this is not/should not be a mini_roundabout? It seems a little
>> >>> > silly to
>> >>> > call it anything else, since the city just dug a hole in the center
>> >>> > of the
>> >>> > existing intersection, built a circular curb, and planted a tree:
>> >>> >
>> >>> > http://g.co/maps/e2gsv
>> >>> >
>> >>> > What about this one? Also a full on roundabout?
>> >>> >
>> >>> > http://g.co/maps/d6n74
>> >>> >
>> >>> > This looks more like a roundabout to me:
>> >>> >
>> >>> > http://g.co/maps/hnbp9
>> >>>
>> >>> All three are roundabouts, yes.
>> >> All 3 are roundabouts, none of them a mini-roundabouts.
>> >>
>> >> The point of a mini-roundabout is that they can be driven over, hence
>> >> whilst cars are supposed to go around them and many are 'speed-hump
>> >> raised' to encourage this behaviour. Trucks can pass over them as many
>> >> are in places where a truck cannot get around otherwise.
>> >>
>> >> The first 2 should be mini-roundabouts, as a truck is likely to have
>> >> serious issues with them. I cannot imagine that tree will last too
>> >> long.
>> >>
>> >> This is a mini-roundabout, which you can see is raised slightly
>> >> http://g.co/maps/hm49m
>> >> Actually its part of the magic roundabout, which is a roundabout you
>> >> can
>> >> go around in either direction, and at each intersection there is a
>> >> mini-roundabout. On osm its here, http://osm.org/go/eumbs5ZIw--
>> >>
>> >> Phil
>> >
>> >
>> > But Nathan does have a point, mini-roundabouts are not a specifically
>> > good name, and the current docs will only make more people tag small
>> > roundabouts as highway=mini_roundabouts..
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > /emj
>> >
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