[Tagging] Change of rendering: place of worship and, terminal without building tag

John Willis johnw at mac.com
Mon Feb 16 13:20:44 UTC 2015

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 16, 2015, at 7:56 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdreist at gmail.com> wrote:
> 2015-02-15 13:44 GMT+01:00 John Willis <johnw at mac.com>:
>> Landuse=religious is a generic version of churchyard.
> I agree that a churchyard could have a dedicated tag like amenity=churchyard (similar to amenity=graveyard) or historic=churchyard. IMHO "landuse" shouldn't define a feature, but be used as an attribute (the usage of the land).

It is the grounds used by the POW or building=church/temple/ whatever

It's just a more religious agnostic term - as a Buddhist temple doesn't have "church grounds", a church doesn't have "mosque grounds". And neither of them are commercial or retail  grounds. 

>> I can think of several large church complexes in California - a massive Mormon temple, a Presbyterian church ground a with a small preschool, a couple Catholic Churches, a Jehovah's Witness hall, a big mega-church hall, a cult-like church that meets in a house (registered as a church so it shows up in google maps as one), a mosque, a Greek Orthodox something church, a Jewish community center, and now about 100 Buddhist temples and Shinto shrines.
> let's take a look at the community center: do we want different landuse for a community center operated by a religious community compared to a profane one? (This is a question we have to ask ourselves in order to find tagging definitions, it is not a rhetorical question)

You caught my error - I wanted throw the JCC on the list because I have been inside, but the better choice for inclusion would have been the synagogue (temple?)  a few blocks away that is affiliated with it (I believe)

But it is a good point to bring up, but because of my error, it is not an easy question. 

IMHO, if it's name is the "Jewish community center", and its "access restricted" because it is for Jewish people and no one else - it is a religious facility imho, though not a POW. 

I visited most of these facilities as a repairman - I would not be welcome to wander in to this particular place.
It is not in service of the local community - just as the "Fellowship Hall" at my parent's Presbyterian church is not a church and is used _exactly_ as a community center - but is operated for the benefit of the patrons of the church. 

But let's say that we do consider both sites - the massive JCC and the small fellowship hall a community center - 

it seems straight forward to me now, but didn't envision the landuse=religious for this purpose. 

The main church in my example (which is the centerpiece of the complex, across the courtyard) would have the POW tag and building=church or whatnot. 

> Shall we have different landuses for schools operated by a religious community compared to a government school?

I think we have decided that the deciding factor for a schools primary tagging and repentant ion in OSM is if it is a school or not (k-12, higher Ed), and the rest goes under operator 

> Just as a sidenote: if I were to tag all residential places in Rome which belong to the catholic church, 25% of Rome would be "landuse=religious".

If I tagged the land owned by the temple that operates my school, then the electrician shop and a cafe that were out front would be religious too, but they clearly are not. 

It was loaned to my friend a long time ago, and he built a bookstore and an office on the space. 

It is not part of the temple grounds. It is not part of the school. It is not part of the preschool. It was landuse=commercial when it was (in the end) the office of an electrical engineer. 

Recently the temple requested the land back. He moved and they bulldozed the building and are constructing a new wing to the private Buddhist high school they operate. Which would be school landuse or whatever. 

But the temple across the street - with the big Buddha worship hall, big bell, giant graveyard (yes, with a few samurai in it), and a tall wall around the whole mess - landuse=religious. 

> So far I have simply added religion=christian, denomination=catholic to universities, schools and kindergardens operated by the catholic church, because they are mainly universities, schools and kindergardens, not religious places in my eyes. There are also banks operated by the church, is this "religious" landuse?

This seems perfectly reasonable, because we have decided (and I agree) that the important sorting bit is the fact that it is a school, which is why I would do the same to the schools grounds of the private Buddhist high school.

> So far I have not experienced a problem with adding "religion" and "denomination" tags to features operated by a religious community and have continued to use the same landuse I'd use otherwise on the same kind of feature (if any). What would I gain by adding "landuse=religious"?

To map the _grounds_ of religious facilities where the predominant use is worship, and support facilities for the meeting and rituals and various things happen. 

It is the same thing you gain by mapping the landuse of a mall instead of just the building. 

Every one of those places mentioned  had an easily defined area beyond the building itself, and amenities that belong to the temple/church/synagogue/mosque/shrine - they have easily defined grounds. 

The JCC question is a great question, as I am unsure -but for the synagogue itself nearby there is no question. 

You told me that OSM wasn't about ownership, and I mostly agree with that (civic is still fuzzy) - and right now I'm talking purpose with this. - and this land use is an easy fit for the ?millions? Of religious facilities that are larger than a single building, with no mixed purpose, but a different mix of amenities. 

Yes they may have a gift shop, or a nursery - but they are amenities and services offered by this religious facility to its patrons and guests - and that facility sits on this landuse. 

I'm not trying to rope in the land they own, nor the schools they operate (if it more than a side room preschool or whatnot) - 

Just as a mall is retail space, but the office building that the mall management company owns and uses to operate the mall is landuse=commercial+building=office, a church grounds may be landuse=religious, but the school or university is not. 

There has to be a generic churchyard to cover the non-church landuse. 


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