[Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?

John Willis johnw at mac.com
Thu Jun 4 22:40:06 UTC 2015

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 4, 2015, at 11:20 PM, John Eldredge <john at jfeldredge.com> wrote:
> I have no objection to users tagging in their local language. I also have no objection to those users also using tags in a language that has been agreed upon for use in an international context, or to others subsequently adding tags for other languages. Do you feel that maps for any given area should only be available to those fluent in the local language or languages?
> -- 

Two separate things - 

A) the Tags themselves being english is Okay. If someone forks the data for Japan and makes a Japanese (or [insert language here]) tagged map, whatever, but the project is in english. Japanese taggers are already tagging a few things in Japanese anyway (religion tag is where i noticed it first) - but for the most part, iD abstracts away the english tags for beginner mappers anyway (AFAIK).

But we need the ability to define regional customs with OSM tags to conform with regional requirements beyond color choices. For example, Not having intersections with signals labeled with a single symbol means the OSM/carto is useless as a "city map" for visual navigation. Along with the difficulty of getting "approved" culturally or regionally unique shop definitions. This is true of all places - my discussion of Japan (i assume) as a proxy for all regions. 

B) The second issue that comes up is in Asia, where the native script is non-roman, non-phonetic characters. 

In Japan, every single road sign - hundreds of thousands - is in Japanese and English. That sign 40km up in the mountains, where no tourist would drive on a rural tertiary road - English is there. Every single exit sign on the motorway system is in Japanese and English. Train stations are signed are in Japanese Kanji, the phonetic alphabet Hiragana, and English - because even Japanese tourists may not know how to read name Kanji of unfamiliar places. 

Because of the prevalence of English on signs, English Speaking Mappers would tag things with name=日本語 (English) + name:ja=日本語 + name:en=English.  Having the english in parens was deemed to be a bad thing, but because it is still common on the map, new mappers add it back on to name tags (as i did when i first started). 

Mappers do this because:

- OSM's font sizes and strokes are optimized for Roman scripts (and ones of similar characters) the intricate Kanji are difficult to read, but the English in parens is very easy to read. 

- OSM doesn't support multi-language labels. Someone commented that Japanese people wouldn't appreciate English on the map, but in real life, Japan is slathered in English because of the total incomprehensibility of Kanji for any visitor (and almost all place names are very difficult kanji) , along with English being Japan's national "hobby".

This holds true in other places, such as Korea, China, and other Asian countries, though i am unsure of the prevalence of bilingual signs beyond anecdotes.


> John F. Eldredge -- john at jfeldredge.com
> "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
>> On June 3, 2015 7:18:57 PM "pmailkeey ." <pmailkeey at googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> On 4 June 2015 at 00:59, John Willis <johnw at mac.com> wrote:
>>> Its been an uphill battle to get even the most basic (read: required) Japanese mapping conventions accepted. Traffic light rendering is still a big stinky pile of garbage. Kanji rendering is still really bad compared to Roman characters - both are being worked on by people better than me, but two down-voted proposals to get traffic light labeling/rendering "fixed" for SE asia shows where the priorities are for OSM/-carto.
>>> Javbw
>> I see no reason why different 'cultures' cannot completely ignore 'standard' carto and tags and just do their own thing. If I was looking on Japanese OSM for a restaurant, I'd expect to not find a single one. If I was looking for レストラン then I'd expect to find many.
>> -- 
>> Mike.
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