[Tagging] Loomio evaluation

Kotya Karapetyan kotya.lists at gmail.com
Thu Mar 26 12:02:43 UTC 2015


Hi Andre,

I am not sure what point you are trying to make.

> You should say what you mean when you speak of "e-mail" (not being the
best tool).
> If you mean that a plain mail server or list server is insufficient, one
can agree.
> But if you say that the user shouldn't use e-mail, that is wrong.

1) I didn't say that people shouldn't *use* email. I only think that a
mailing list is not the best tool for decision preparation discussions.
Why? Because there is absolutely no structure implied or enforced. If you
have a meeting without an agenda, without *any* rules, without a chairman,
without time limits, with participants joining in the middle of a
discussion and leaving before it's over—what's the probability of having a
successful meeting and getting some decisions prepared?

> You seem to consider including an image as an achievement.

2) I don't consider embedding an image an achievement. Loomio has a pretty
primitive interface, e.g. no buttons (like at StackExchange) to do
formatting. Therefore there was a valid question asked whether it's
possible to embed images. Note that it was not about being WYSIWG or able
to to do rich text. For discussions, we really need to be able to share
photos and screenshots.
I have checked and posted that it was possible, both in the topic and in
individual comments. I just answered the question.

> There is more than that to support: links, lists, tables, titles etc...

3) I am not sure you really need it, but Loomio supports further formatting
that you mention.


However I think that your position is more interesting for this discussion
than just arguing about the functionality and usability of email and
whatever-other-tool. You have a rather strong opinion and I think, whatever
the functionality, you will present a strong opposition to switching.
Therefore I would be interested in knowing *if* it is possible to make you
*want* to switch. Not just to Loomio but to any other tool. Is there such a
thing at all? Is there something you don't like about emails as the
decision preparation tool?

Cheers,
Kotya




On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 11:11 AM, André Pirard <A.Pirard.Papou at gmail.com>
wrote:

>  Hi,
>
> So, the conclusion of my Loomio test is that it does not let the user
> choose which Google account it uses during account creation, it uses the
> connected account and, despite the user cancels the Login operation, Loomio
> continues to try to use the unwanted account. I tried disconnecting the
> account and removing the cookies in vain.
> I was asked to open a Loomio ticket and, although I'm not here to debug
> Loomio, I'm helpful and I did.
> But no one popped up, ad so, Loomio must be seen as unsupported software.
> I could not make actual tests.
>
> On 2015-03-23 19:07, Kotya Karapetyan wrote :
>
> Now I am missing the "like" link :)
>
>  We'll definitely need to find a smart and soft way to attract people to
> a different platform.
> However, though I agree that email is not the best tool, we need a very
> good alternative rather than a marginally better option first.
>
>  You should say what you mean when you speak of "e-mail" (not being the
> best tool).
> If you mean that a plain mail server or list server is insufficient, one
> can agree.
> But if you say that the user shouldn't use e-mail, that is wrong.
> Users complain about the difficulties of composing wiki text or similar
> because it's not wysiwyg and because a Web interface is not adequate.
> E-mail programs are good, basic HTML editors and the best idea is to use
> that same HTML for both forum articles and wiki pages. The said articles
> are easily converted to wiki pages, something that should be more often in
> certain countries.
>
> Personally, I archive the messages I receive in an MAP server that I can
> access with my e-mail program.
> If you add list management functions to that, the more the better, you
> make an excellent Loomio.
> The list servers we use have 2 big shortcomings: 1) limiting message size,
> 2) considering messages as text with HTML attachment.
> They should use a readonly IMAP server.
>
> Loomio test page <https://www.loomio.org/d/1E3YAaz0/test-images>
> To answer the Ralph’s question in the mailing list, this thread is an
> attempt to embed an image:
>
> You seem to consider including an image as an achievement.
> There is more than that to support: links, lists, tables, titles etc...
>
> I have copied and pasted to this message the page of the test test you
> made on Loomio.
> Below that, I made a fancier image with the text wrapping to the left,
> just for show.
> Belox that, I copied from the main map the tags of Elisabeth Tower, the
> one supporting Big Ben.
> It contains titles, links, a table and a list.
>
>   André.
>
>    OSM tagging <https://www.loomio.org/g/tknueHrw/osm-tagging>
>       Test images
>
> To answer the Ralph’s question in the mailing list, this thread is an
> attempt to embed an image:
>
>    Started 1 hour ago by Kotya Karapetyan
> <https://www.loomio.org/u/2r5uoFXS/kotya-karapetyan>
> Edited <https://www.loomio.org/d/1E3YAaz0/show_description_history>
>    Current decision
>   Discussion
>
>     -    <https://www.loomio.org/u/2r5uoFXS/kotya-karapetyan>
>      Kotya Karapetyan <https://www.loomio.org/u/2r5uoFXS/kotya-karapetyan>
>
>    Image in a comment.
>
>    Quisque at orci accumsan, aliquam massa eget, mattis nisi. Fusce
>    commodo venenatis molestie. Proin sagittis enim sed orci semper efficitur.
>    Suspendisse porttitor ornare justo, quis ornare elit gravida nec. Etiam
>    luctus, purus eu luctus pharetra, ipsum odio rhoncus tellus, in posuere
>    metus est eu sem. Curabitur sed est a purus rutrum vehicula. Donec sit amet
>    porta risus.
>
>    Morbi in tristique lacus. Sed ultricies mauris ut tristique fringilla.
>    Suspendisse sed dictum elit. Sed eget facilisis ipsum. In hac habitasse
>    platea dictumst. Pellentesque habitant morbi tristique senectus et netus et
>    malesuada fames ac turpis egestas.
>      Edited <https://www.loomio.org/comments/580187> 1 hour ago
>    <https://www.loomio.org/d/1E3YAaz0/test-images#comment-580187>
>
>           Help translate Loomio!
> <https://www.loomio.org/d/hB1Oijwv/overview-of-the-translation-process-for-translators>
>  Pricing <https://www.loomio.org/pricing> Public groups
> <https://www.loomio.org/explore> Blog <https://www.loomio.org/blog> Help
> <https://www.loomio.org/help> Contact
> <https://www.loomio.org/pages/contact> About
> <https://www.loomio.org/about> Terms
> <https://www.loomio.org/terms_of_service> Privacy
> <https://www.loomio.org/privacy>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>  Image beside a comment.
>   Quisque at orci accumsan, aliquam massa eget, mattis nisi. Fusce
> commodo venenatis molestie. Proin sagittis enim sed orci semper efficitur.
> Suspendisse porttitor ornare justo, quis ornare elit gravida nec. Etiam
> luctus, purus eu luctus pharetra, ipsum odio rhoncus tellus, in posuere
> metus est eu sem. Curabitur sed est a purus rutrum vehicula. Donec sit amet
> porta risus.
>
> Morbi in tristique lacus. Sed ultricies mauris ut tristique fringilla.
> Suspendisse sed dictum elit. Sed eget facilisis ipsum. In hac habitasse
> platea dictumst. Pellentesque habitant morbi tristique senectus et netus et
> malesuada fames ac turpis egestas.
>
>     ------------------------------
> Way: Elizabeth Tower (123557148)
>  Updating and minor corrections
> Edited 11 days ago by MQF69 <http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/MQF69>
>  Version #20 · Changeset #29485340
> <http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/29485340>
> Tags  building
> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:building?uselang=en> yes
> building:roof:shape pyramidal  height
> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:height?uselang=en> 70  name
> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name?uselang=en> Clock Tower
> name:ar بيج بن  name:en
> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name:en?uselang=en> Elizabeth
> Tower  name:he ביג בן  name:lt Vestminsterio laikrodžio bokštas  tourism
> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:tourism?uselang=en> attraction
> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism=attraction?uselang=en>
> wikipedia <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:wikipedia?uselang=en> en:Big
> Ben <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/en:Big%20Ben?uselang=en>  Nodes
>
>    - 26700840 <http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/26700840>
>    - 1377413864 <http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1377413864>
>    - 1377413913 <http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1377413913> (part of
>    way 168590145 <http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/168590145>)
>    - 1232221090 <http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1232221090> (part of
>    ways 168590145 <http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/168590145> and
>    168590145 <http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/168590145>)
>    - 1232221081 <http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1232221081>
>    - 362918274 <http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/362918274>
>    - 1681924242 <http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1681924242> (part of
>    way 155834922 <http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/155834922>)
>    - 26700840 <http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/26700840>
>
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> _______________________________________________
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