[Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

Warin 61sundowner at gmail.com
Mon Mar 7 10:55:34 UTC 2016

On 7/03/2016 8:25 PM, Colin Smale wrote:
> How about limiting the list to product categories, according to an 
> agreed taxonomy? Particularly categories which help to distinguish one 
> shop from another. For example supermarkets might be expected to sell 
> frozen food, but occasionally they might not. So frozen food would be 
> a candidate for a product category. Some sell electrical goods, but 
> not all of them. Another candidate for a category I think.
> The category level has to be high enough that it will be stable and 
> not change frequently, but low enough that it has some value in 
> deciding whether a shop is worth visiting.
> Striking this balance is something we are not always good at, as the 
> discussion easily gets polarised and the outcome (if there is a clear 
> outcome) is often a design-by-committee Frankenstein's monster of a 
> tagging scheme... There has been a proposal in the last few days to 
> redesign our highway tagging. Clearly this is not going to make it 
> (because we have already a very well-established tagging scheme for 
> this), but it does illustrate that a somewhat scientific approach to 
> these tagging taxonomies, including some objective criteria to 
> classify against, may have great value in the future. So in the 
> context of shops, there must be an existing taxonomy somewhere that we 
> could leverage. Possibly within the business itself (how do 
> Tesco/Walmart classify their shops? What attributes do they store?) or 
> industry organisations or statistical bodies (anything they provide 
> statistics on, like "how many shops sell childrens clothes?" is a hint 
> for a product category).

Well the military have been at it longer than Tesco/Walmart .... the 
first level is
Of course they go down to individual items .. even identifying where it 
was made, "You can have that screw ... from Denmark or UK, Sir?".  But 
the first level maybe sufficient?  There are a lot of them ... some can 
be ignored ... not much call for space vehicles nor guided weapons yet?
I do think there are too many ... and at least at present I would think 
most won't get used.
Frozen food does not get mentioned .. if you remove the word 'frozen' 
then you are fine... Outback shops in Australia sell bread ... always 
frozen as it takes too long to transport it 'fresh'. So food types first 

The branding thing... If you have a TREK bicycle with a frame failure 
then you need a Trek dealer to make the lifetime claim on the damaged 
frame. So I do think that has a role to play somewhere, if not under 
'sells' then where?
> I would suggest that a category-based tagging scheme would be 
> "OSM-Core" but of course anyone can extend this scheme to include 
> lower-level data such as individual products as required, while 
> staying within the core category scheme (i.e. not duplicating it or 
> competing with it).
> //colin
> On 2016-03-07 09:45, Warin wrote:
>> On 7/03/2016 6:56 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> On 03/07/2016 07:54 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>>>>> Just imagine what would happen if
>>>>> someone took it upon them to actually list all the products sold at a
>>>>> supermarket. And update that once a week.
>>>> I see no problem with that except that anybody would quickly give up and
>>>> overall waste time.
>>> It is possible that some supermarkets would make their list of products
>>> available electronically and thus provide an incentive for a clever
>>> hacker to simply convert that to OSM. Once we say we accept a list of
>>> products for a supermarket, few would make the distinction of "surveyed
>>> list = ok, imported list = not ok"...
>>> Such an automatic import would practically be the only way to keep a
>>> list of products current.
>>>> But I see no significant negative effects extending to other people
>>>> (shop element would be hard to edit for some time until somebody would
>>>> remove outdated data would be the largest problem what is not really
>>>> significant).
>>> A typical grocery store would carry about 30.000 different products.
>>> Even assuming it would be possible to encode each in a 15-character
>>> string, the "sells" tag would half a megabyte long - for each store. And
>>> update once a week. If this were done for many stores, the impact on the
>>> size of the planet file, the daily diffs, or even the small download you
>>> make to edit an area, would be noticeable.
>> That is a good point.
>> How to do both? Have the detail without too much change/bandwidth?
>> Guide the use of the 'sells' tag that it should be used for items that are available and predicted to be available for the next year?
>> That may reduce frequent updates?
>> There could be default values that could cover the basics ... like pub sells beer?
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