[Tagging] Fire hydrants vs suction_point

François Lacombe fl.infosreseaux at gmail.com
Thu Aug 17 11:35:29 UTC 2017


Hi all and thank you for those interesting developments

My point is all about semantics and ease the mappers' work
Like everyone, I agree to distinguish pressurized fire hydrants, and "dry"
hydrants like ones where a pump is required to get water.
But not in favor of an additional value of emergency key.
This will lead to extra large and cluttered like
emergency=big_yellow_fire_hydrant and
emergency=small_cap_covering_underground_valve
It's really interesting both from mapper and consumer view to use several
keys to give pieces of information.

In some countries, pressurized hydrants and dry points have the same shape,
only their colour change.
There is 100% chance a not knowledgable mapper will use
emergency=fire_hydrant instead of anything else.
This is a dry "hydrant" :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:French_hydrant_water_pond.jpg

Pressurized or not, there are connectorized pipes wich allow firefighters
to get water which have a given appearance on ground (barrel, underground,
pipe...)
Even if it's not always pressurized, the design of such things is done as
to allow the water to flow under pressure (gravity, pumped or whatever) and
that's why I like to think "dry" and "pressurized" "hydrants" are all
members of the same set of feature.
Otherwise, you have ponds, wells, which are open field water sources

In a second time, i respectably disagree (without shortening the good work
done) to namespaces keys suction_point:, fire_hydrant: and so on...
In some cases they are redundant and don't ease the key name typing in
editors without pressets.
It may be great to don't encourage them, please.

Let's keep up with looking for the best tagging

Cheers

François


*François Lacombe*

fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
www.infos-reseaux.com
@InfosReseaux <http://www.twitter.com/InfosReseaux>

2017-08-17 12:54 GMT+02:00 Colin Smale <colin.smale at xs4all.nl>:

> Suction point is probably not the right word in English. I haven't found
> any specific idiomatic usage of this phrase, so it seems to just mean
> "point where suction is present/applied". Dry Hydrant seems a better fit
> for what you are discussing, do you agree?
>
> http://www.nfpa.org/assets/gallery/firewise/operationWater/step3.htm
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_hydrant#Non-pressurized_.
> 28dry.29_hydrants
>
> //colin
>
> On 2017-08-17 12:32, Moritz wrote:
>
> Hi François, hi Alberto,
>
> we had in the past days a discussion on the german OSM forum[3
> <https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=59352>] and agreed on
> the point that
> a point where you can suck water from a water source is a
> emergency=suction_point.
> Our understanding of a fire hydrant is, that it is connected to a water
> main and thus any
> suction point is no fire hydrant.
>
> The special case of commercial area where the owner is responsible for the
> hydrants and the hydrants are fed by
> pumps from ground water or by tanks were not discussed (as Viking81 wrote
> on the discussion pages of [1
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Fire_Hydrant_Extensions>]
> and [2
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Fire_water_well>
> ]).
>
> As I am a firefighter by myself I think there is such thing, but I will
> figure out with the local fire department.
>
> We furthermore agreed that there is no need of my newly proposed tag
> emergency=fire_water_well as we can define
> the different types of suction points by adding appropriate tags for each
> type.
>
> My point is suction points and fire hydrant are different but compatible
> things, as follow :
> emergency=suction_point is a prefered place where to pump water in a river
>
> I think you meant from a river. But yes I agree.
>
> emergency=fire_hydrant
> is a kind of device which may or not be present in places like suction
> points but in a large amount of other places.
>
>
> Nope.
> Fire hydrant: pressurized water from water main. Edge case of Vikings
> point not yet covered
>
> Hydrants that serve factories or shopping centers often are not connected
> to the public water main:
> instead they are connected to a private local water network fed by pumps
> that suck water from the ground.
> So these local water networks and their hydrants are fed by what we can
> call water wells.
>
>
> Suction points
>
> Points where the firefighter have to bring there own pump to suck water
> from pond, river or well.
> These suction points can be equipped with a pipe connected to the water or
> not. Something like this with pipe [4
> <http://www.feuerwehr-satow.de/typo3/uploads/pics/30012011_saugstelle.jpg>
> ][5 <http://home.teleos-web.de/fschubert4/gfx/Bild%20Saugstelle2.jpg>][6
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:French_hydrant_water_pond.jpg>].
>
> Or this [7
> <http://www.infranken.de/storage/image/5/9/2/8/2498295_cms2image-fixedwidth-900x0_1pbCVs_61CvXH.jpg>
> ][8
> <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Zufahrt_zur_Saugstelle_der_Feuerwehr_in_Herbstein%2C_Vogelsberg%2C_Hessen_-_1.jpeg/1200px-Zufahrt_zur_Saugstelle_der_Feuerwehr_in_Herbstein%2C_Vogelsberg%2C_Hessen_-_1.jpeg>]
> which also is a suction point, which can has a sign. But basically it's
> just an somehow prepared point to have
> easier access to the water itself.
>
>
>
> We need to know if the common accepted definition of suction point is this:
>
> Suction points aren't devices like hydrants but are preferred places
> to pump water from a not pressurized water source (river, pond, well).
>
>
> Yes
>
> Hydrant is an equipment/device and suction point is a place where you
>
> Yes
>
> may or not find a hydrant.
>
> No. I would not call a pipe at a suction point hydrant (lack of pressured
> water).
> At least from my German point of view, because here pipe and hydrant look
> different.
>
> In this case the hydrant will be tagged emergency=fire_hydrant +
> fire_hydrant:pressure=0.
>
>
> Nope, because then you have emergency=fire_hydrant but you have to bring
> your own pump to get water. To be sure you have to
> evaluate the fire_hydrant:pressure tag to determine what it is.
>
>
> Here is the outcome of the discussion in the German forum:
>
>
> # Suction point with pipe at a lake, river, stream etc (like [5
> <http://home.teleos-web.de/fschubert4/gfx/Bild%20Saugstelle2.jpg>])
>
> emergency=suction_point
> suction_point:source=water
> suction_point:position=lane|parking_lot|sidewalk|green
>
>
> # Suction point at fire_water_pond (artificially created pond, otherwise
> it is the above one)
>
> emergency=suction_point
> suction_point:source=fire_water_pond
> suction_point:volume=# (volume in m^3)
> suction_point:productivity=small|medium|large|#  (small: 400-800l/min,
> medium: 800-1600l/min, large: 1600+ l/min; l/min)
> suction_point:position=lane|parking_lot|sidewalk|green
>
> # Some prepared suction place at  lake, river, stream etc, but without a
> pipe (like [8
> <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Zufahrt_zur_Saugstelle_der_Feuerwehr_in_Herbstein%2C_Vogelsberg%2C_Hessen_-_1.jpeg/1200px-Zufahrt_zur_Saugstelle_der_Feuerwehr_in_Herbstein%2C_Vogelsberg%2C_Hessen_-_1.jpeg>
> ][7
> <http://www.infranken.de/storage/image/5/9/2/8/2498295_cms2image-fixedwidth-900x0_1pbCVs_61CvXH.jpg>
> ])
>
> emergency=suction_point
> suction_point:type=suction_place
> suction_point:source=water
>
> # Suction point at water_tank
>
> emergency=suction_point
> suction_point:source=water_tank
> suction_point:volume=small|medium|large|# (small 75–150 m^3, small
> 150–300 m^3 und large>300 m^3; volume in m^3)
> suction_point:productivity=small|medium|large|#  (small: 400-800l/min,
> medium: 800-1600l/min, large: 1600+ l/min; l/min)
> suction_point:position=lane|parking_lot|sidewalk|green
>
>
> # Normal fire water well
>
> emergency=suction_point
> suction_point:type=fire_water_well
> suction_point:productivity=small|medium|large|#  (small: 400-800l/min,
> medium: 800-1600l/min, large: 1600+ l/min; l/min)
> suction_point:position=lane|parking_lot|sidewalk|green
> fire_water_well:type=suction
> fire_water_well:water_level=# (distance water level-ground)
>
> # Fire water well with integrated pump (electric or water driven pump)
>
> emergency=suction_point
> suction_point:type=fire_water_well
> suction_point:position=lane|parking_lot|sidewalk|green
> suction_point:productivity=small|medium|large|#  (small: 400-800l/min,
> medium: 800-1600l/min, large: 1600+ l/min; l/min)
> fire_water_well:type=bilge_pump|electric_pump
>
> With this tagging scheme there are still some issues:
>
> For productivity tag I just copied from the German standards.
>
> In case of a water_tank the volume belongs technically to the water_tank
> itself
> but not to the suction point. But I think it is more convenient because as
> water_tanks
> are usually hidden under ground they are not as visible as suction points.
> So I
> assume they will be not mapped as often as suction points. Other point: to
> get the volume
>  information of the suction point you have also to check the next
> water_tank. Seems inconvenient.
>
>
> For the special case hydrants on commercial area sourced from pumps or
> water_tanks I would go for hydrant. Because
> the whole thing behaves more like a hydrant then a suction point (at least
> as long the tank is not empty or the wells
> are not exhausted).
>
> Why is a water well with an integrated pump not a hydrant:
>
> Special case of water well. And firefighters expect from a hydrant that
> they just have to connect there hose and get water easily.
> With the well with integrated pump you have to keep in mind that you have
> to bring a pump or a generator.
>
>
> I would suggest, that we discuss all stuff here, not on the wiki
> discussion page as long as no new participant shows up.
> Mailinglist is easier to use.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Moritz
>
>
> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_
> features/Fire_Hydrant_Extensions
> [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_
> features/Fire_water_well
> [3] https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=59352
> [4] http://www.feuerwehr-satow.de/typo3/uploads/pics/30012011_
> saugstelle.jpg
> [5] http://home.teleos-web.de/fschubert4/gfx/Bild%20Saugstelle2.jpg
> [6] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:French_hydrant_water_pond.jpg
> [7] http://www.infranken.de/storage/image/5/9/2/8/2498295_
> cms2image-fixedwidth-900x0_1pbCVs_61CvXH.jpg
> [8] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/
> Zufahrt_zur_Saugstelle_der_Feuerwehr_in_Herbstein%2C_
> Vogelsberg%2C_Hessen_-_1.jpeg/1200px-Zufahrt_zur_Saugstelle_
> der_Feuerwehr_in_Herbstein%2C_Vogelsberg%2C_Hessen_-_1.jpeg
>
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