[Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

Wed Aug 8 17:55:34 UTC 2018

> On Aug 8, 2018, at 11:28 AM, tagging-request at openstreetmap.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: RFC - landcover clearing (Martin Koppenhoefer)
>   2. Re: Part/whole confusion with Wikidata tag,	and the need for
>      enveloping parts into a whole (Martin Koppenhoefer)
>   3. Re: Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
>      (Martin Koppenhoefer)
>   4. Re: Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
>      (SelfishSeahorse)
>   5. Re: Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
>      (Peter Elderson)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 18:04:21 +0200
> From: Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdreist at gmail.com>
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> 	<tagging at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] RFC - landcover clearing
> Message-ID: <50850AB9-8DD2-4960-B6A2-D039BF66C61B at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> what about natural=clearing? I don’t see “clearing” as a landcover value that suits. Landcover is about what is there physically, “clearing” is about the absence of what was there before.
> 
> Cheers,
> Martin
> 
> 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
>> On 6. Aug 2018, at 02:11, Warin <61sundowner at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> I have been looking at the values used with the landuse key to try and stop land covers becoming regarded as a legitimate use of the key landuse. 
>> 
>> 
>> One strange value I came across was 'clearing'. No OSM wiki document. 
>> 
>> I resolved this to mean a change in land cover usually from trees to a 'clear' area. 
>> 
>> Most of these look to be from HOT mapping. 
>> 
>> 
>> Other instances of the value 'clearing' are natural=clearing and wood=clearing.
>> 
>> So I am thinking that these would best combined into the one tag  landcover=clearing
>> 
>> A proposal page is ready for comments - link - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Landcover%3Dclearing
>> 
>> The basics are : 
>> 
>> Definition: An area where surrounding larger vegetation, such as trees,       are not present. This provides more light than the surrounding area. It may have lower vegetation growing, or it may be an outcrop of rock. 
>> 
>> Rationale:
>> Defines use of already existing value and suggest better ways of mapping these features. It is meant to encourage better mapping and suggest that this tag is a last resort.     
>> 
>> Key
>> The key landcover is use as the 'best fit' as it marks the lack of a surrounding land cover, so it is directly related to a land cover. 
>> The area could all ready have a land use - part of a forestry area for example. The area could have been made by man or nature so neither of the keys natural or man_made would suit all situations.     
>> 
>> How to map
>> The section on 'how to map' gives 4 options of how to map a clearing; map what is there, map what is surrounding, map both what is there and surrounding or map with landcover=clearing. 
>> Asking a mapper not to map this feature is not a good idea, mappers should be encouraged to map not discouraged. If a mapper has found this tag page then it is best to document better ways to tag the feature with this tag being the lest desirable result that maps the information rather than not mapping the information. 
>> The listed order is a compromise. The better mapping ones come before landcover=clearing to discourage it use. The simplest option first - map what is there - as that is the easiest option. If they cannot determine what is there then the next option - map the surrounds. Then the combination of the first two. Then finally the last option and least desirable. Hopefully this causes some though on what they are mapping, rather than just using the tag. 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 18:44:14 +0200
> From: Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdreist at gmail.com>
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> 	<tagging at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Part/whole confusion with Wikidata tag,	and the
> 	need for enveloping parts into a whole
> Message-ID: <5B1DC510-BD27-48EA-A2CF-A29752FB35B5 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=utf-8
> 
> 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
>> On 8. Aug 2018, at 02:22, Yuri Astrakhan <yuriastrakhan at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> If we duplicated everything, than each part of a railroad station should have duplicate web site URL, hours of operation, operator name, and tons of other info.
> 
> 
> I don’t know what situation you are referring to, and how it is currently mapped, but if there are different parts mapped, there will usually be a reason for it, and different websites, operation hours (never mapped these myself), operators and other info might be the reason for splitting it. Maybe the parts of the station shouldn’t be mapped as if they were stations on their own, but as parts of a station?
> Usually tags go on the object they apply to, tags for a station go on the station, tags for a part of a station go on the part, etc.
> 
> Cheers,
> Martin 
> 
> 
> ———————————————
> 


> I wanted to add my input here as I have done work in several different countries with several different naming schemes. 
> 
> It is my interpretation that the goal of this discussion is to determine the best way to distinguish different translations of the name of roads.
> 
> I propose that only one language is used for the name= tag. This will help to create a standard for naming that will bring clarity and consistency. If multiple languages are used in the area, place the most commonly used language in the name=* field and then the other languages in the appropriate name:en=*, name:fr=*, and so on. This will ensure that the data is specifically catalogued for routing software, while providing the opportunity for users of data to specify the language they desire to read the map in. In the end I suppose it would just be a matter of seeing both all the time or not but if we use the name:(insert whatever desired language here)=* we ensure a more specific and catalogued database for OSM globally. 
> 
> An example of this the Greek method where they have 
> name=Μητροπόλεως 
> name:el=Μητροπόλεως
> name:en=Mitropoleos street
> 
> In Greece if I use a routing software, I can easily tell it to show me name:en or name:el for whatever I need to see at the time. Rather then using hyphen, slash or space I propose we use this method for distinguishing different translations in our naming scheme
> sent from a phone

> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 18:54:45 +0200
> From: Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdreist at gmail.com>
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> 	<tagging at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual
> 	names
> Message-ID: <5E9BAD70-34C0-4A0F-A5E3-C60920E87FC3 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=utf-8
> 
> 
>> On 8. Aug 2018, at 17:43, Johnparis <okosm at johnfreed.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Osmose generates an error if you use a slash.
> 
> 
> Osmose could be fixed, I don’t see it has any authority on what is correct or not, it is just a tool to help you find situations where something might eventually be suspicious, nothing more. It is up to you to decide and evaluate the situation.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Martin
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 19:12:44 +0200
> From: SelfishSeahorse <selfishseahorse at gmail.com>
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> 	<tagging at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual
> 	names
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAJJ-S96qV6DqX-t4UYYSbN69aChO=F_4J7R-U2zzoNnSODOtiw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> I suspect that the different punctuation marks on OSM are a
> consequence of different writing habits in the respective regions,
> which i recommend to follow.
> 
> For example, in English-speaking regions and in Switzerland the slash
> without spaces is used (e.g. Biel/Bienne), unless one of the two names
> already has a space, in which case the slash is usually set with
> spaces (e.g. Bielersee / Lac de Bienne).
> 
> Regards
> Markus
> 
> On Wed, 8 Aug 2018 at 14:21, Andy Mabbett <andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>> 
>> Please see:
>> 
>>   https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Multilingual_names#Slash.2C_space.2C_or_spaced_hyphen.3F
>> 
>> where I wrote:
>> 
>> This page (and perhaps actual practice) is inconsistent in suggesting:
>> 
>> * slashes: name=L'Alguer/Alghero (New Zealand, Portugal, Sardinia)
>> * spaced hyphens: name=Rue du Marché aux Poulets - Kiekenmarkt (Belgium, Spain)
>> * spaces: name=干諾道中 Connaught Road Central (Hong Kong)
>> * spaced slashes: name=Le Rhin / Rhein (shared boundaries)
>> 
>> Greater consistency would surely be advantageous?
>> 
>> --
>> Andy Mabbett
>> @pigsonthewing
>> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 19:28:38 +0200
> From: Peter Elderson <pelderson at gmail.com>
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> 	<tagging at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual
> 	names
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAKf=P+txYYFjeceoLEbYR1H_4WHO4gSv44STcNXQXFEpeYPV_Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
>> the slash without spaces is used (e.g. Biel/Bienne), unless one of the
> two names already has a space, in which case the slash is usually set
> with spaces
> (e.g. Bielersee / Lac de Bienne).
> 
> This I would support. It is generally used and understood like this in
> Nederland as well. The remark that if the script type changes a special
> separator is not needed, I second that too.
> 
> 2018-08-08 19:12 GMT+02:00 SelfishSeahorse <selfishseahorse at gmail.com>:
> 
>> I suspect that the different punctuation marks on OSM are a
>> consequence of different writing habits in the respective regions,
>> which i recommend to follow.
>> 
>> For example, in English-speaking regions and in Switzerland the slash
>> without spaces is used (e.g. Biel/Bienne), unless one of the two names
>> already has a space, in which case the slash is usually set with
>> spaces (e.g. Bielersee / Lac de Bienne).
>> 
>> Regards
>> Markus
>> 
>> On Wed, 8 Aug 2018 at 14:21, Andy Mabbett <andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Please see:
>>> 
>>>   https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Multilingual_
>> names#Slash.2C_space.2C_or_spaced_hyphen.3F
>>> 
>>> where I wrote:
>>> 
>>> This page (and perhaps actual practice) is inconsistent in suggesting:
>>> 
>>> * slashes: name=L'Alguer/Alghero (New Zealand, Portugal, Sardinia)
>>> * spaced hyphens: name=Rue du Marché aux Poulets - Kiekenmarkt (Belgium,
>> Spain)
>>> * spaces: name=干諾道中 Connaught Road Central (Hong Kong)
>>> * spaced slashes: name=Le Rhin / Rhein (shared boundaries)
>>> 
>>> Greater consistency would surely be advantageous?
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Andy Mabbett
>>> @pigsonthewing
>>> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging at openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Vr gr Peter Elderson
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