[Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Eugene Podshivalov yaugenka at gmail.com
Sun Dec 9 10:43:53 UTC 2018

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 04:17, Joseph Eisenberg <joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com>:

> For example, in America we can call a waterway=stream a “brook”, “creek”,
> “run” and several other things. These waterways will be tagged
> waterway=stream or =river (depending on size) with name=“Bull Run”,
> =“Walker Creek”, =“Johnson’s Brook”, etc.
> We don’t use waterway=creek or waterway=run because there is no
> consistent difference between these. In fact in Standard British English a
> Creek is often a tidal channel in a salt marsh or mangroves.

There is difference between these types of water flows. You can read about
it in this article

So in fact you are putting categories into names just because they do not
match the OSM's tags.
In Russian for example we do not put "River" into river names at all
whereas in English you do it always.
Another example is that in English you always say "Lake Baikal" whereas in
Russian it is just "Байкал" (without the "lake" word).
In Russian we have very strict difference between a proper name and a
common name. Whatever characterizes a group of objects is called common
name, e.g. "street", "school", "hotel", "river", "stream", "creek" etc.
Alsmost any proper name can be used without it's common name depending on
the context, e.g. if you are discussing "Atlantic ocean" with your friend
you can say just "Atlantic".

So this topic was raised as a suggestion to distinguish between proper and
common names strictly to put only proper names into "name" field and common
names into some other field taking into account that language specific
common names very often differ from the generic categories adopted in OSM.
Without that distinction OSM cannot be called a true geospacial database
because there are no fields which let you query data by it's real category
(common name), you currently have to do that by analysing the "name" filed.
I understand that this would be a very big change but on the other hand it
would open doors to utilizing OSM for absolutely any purpose, not just for
maps rendering.

вс, 9 дек. 2018 г. в 03:38, Michael Patrick <geodesy99 at gmail.com>:

>> From: Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdreist at gmail.com>
>> thank you for the references to the specific standards. I’m going to look
>> more into it. Problem is if these are hundreds of pages most people will
>> not look the tags up ;-)
> You're welcome, and I totally agree with your observation, especially
> considering the international basis of OSM. And thanks for even taking a
> passing interest in the topic. It is a "red-headed stepchild
> <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/red-headed_stepchild>" sort of issue, and
> because it cuts across just about every community and portion of the OSM
> technology stack, and any effort to apply the known solutions would
> automatically generate a lot of animosity immediately, even if long-term it
> made life easier and more inclusive of local variation -  that is what
> happens outside of OSM, it's not specific to OSM.
> I wouldn't expect individuals to look through hundreds of pages, any
> eventual solution would require a technology stack to assist the user, like
> a child using a botany key to find a species name in Latin in a couple of
> steps. And I respectfully submit that situation already exists, like with
> the user-defined 'amenity' tag (  9261items, 441 'pages'
> <https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/amenity#values>). Addressing the
> situation rubs up against too many OSM culture themes, similar to large
> scale import or automatic edits. It is most likely easier to address
> outside of OSM, along with some sort of ODBL 'firewall' insulation ( like
> the NPS <http://www.mtaylorlong.com/work/park-tiles> ). The NGA most likely
> does this sort of thing
> <https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20150622005999/en/NGA-DigitalGlobe-Open-Source-Toolkit-Harness-Power>,
> with tools like Hootenanny <https://github.com/ngageoint/hootenanny>
>> Do they not have grade eight roofers in the US?
> True, to great extent, but the absence of an 8 in this case is not because
> of that. Actually there is a skills shortage crisis for all the trades in
> the U.S. ... the bulk of tradesmen in the country are retiring or near
> retirement in the next decade.
> Somewhat off-topic for OSM, but it is a sort of 'tagging' schema.
> The example text was pulled from the somewhat arcane U.S. Federal Wage
> Scales, where specific pay grades are then extracted to fit local
> conditions, especially trade union classifications - i.e. another area or
> skill might use 2,3,5,8,9.
> Depending on the trade an apprenticeship program will range widely from 1
> year to 6 years. Depending on the industry, the journeymen phase, it
> becomes even wider, for example the nuclear industry trades include "Basic
> Atomic & Nuclear Physics", "Heat Transfer & Fluid Flow"- in the U.K., I
> recall, you get a BEng in Nuclear Engineering out of some of the trade
> apprenticeships.  The Federal Grades are linear, and particular grades
> are selected that match specialization and trade for a given area, and that
> isn't always numerically 'linear'.
> Michael Patrick
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