[Tagging] maxspeed:type vs source:maxspeed // StreetComplete

[Tobias Zwick]

This is France though. The abutters-key would only need to be used in
the United States in order to infer the default speed limits as only
there, a difference is made between residence districts and business
districts. In France and/or the rest of the world, what about perhaps

urban=yes/no?
(borrowed from source:maxspeed=FR:urban)

But I do get the problem of different definitions of what is
urban/"built-up area" and what not in different countries. Some
countries define "built-up area" only within the limits defined by the
"Welcome to Foo-Town" signs (e.g. Germany), some countries define it by
the abutters (if there are houses, then it is built-up area, regardless
of whether it is within city limits or not) and one by whether there is
street lighting or not (United Kingdom).

So, tagging something like highway:legal_type=built_up or urban=yes
requires knowledge of how it is defined in the legislation. As much as
it currently requires knowledge of how urban is defined when tagging
source:maxspeed=FR:urban.
I know that you know this, just saying because it is important to
mention for the discussion here.

On 19/09/2018 21:41, djakk djakk wrote:
> Sound cool but there may be a gap between the reality and the law :
> example : it looks like the countryside but legally it is inside the
> built up area : 
> http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Dybpz_fHGEmWdLjfG7OMvQ/photo
> There should be 2 tags : abutters=rural and highway:legal_type=built_up
> 
> 
> djakk
> 
> 
> Le mer. 19 sept. 2018 à 21:27, Tobias Zwick <osm at westnordost.de
> <mailto:osm at westnordost.de>> a écrit :
> 
>     Okay, so US-American legislation usually differs between "residential
>     district" and "business district" for maxspeed defaults, as opposed to
>     "built-up area" in most other countries.
> 
>     Actually, there is a tag to denote that a street is in a residential
>     district or business district. It comes from the early days of OSM where
>     people were mapping with their GPS trackers for the lack of available
>     aerial imagery. What about this?:
> 
>     abutters=residential
>     abutters=commercial
> 
>     See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:abutters
> 
>     On 19/09/2018 14:08, Greg Troxel wrote:
>     > Tod Fitch <tod at fitchdesign.com <mailto:tod at fitchdesign.com>> writes:
>     >
>     >>> On Sep 18, 2018, at 6:19 PM, Joseph Eisenberg
>     <joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com <mailto:joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com>> wrote:
>     >>>
>     >>> So on the boundary=administrative admin_level=6 for Rogers
>     County, we could have something like maxspeed:type:default=45mph
>     >>
>     >> Except that more typically there will be different default speed
>     >> limits on each of the various OSM highway classifications. So maybe
>     >> something more like “maxspeed:default:residential=25 mph”.
>     >
>     > I am not aware of *unposted* default limits in the US being
>     different by
>     > an entity smaller than state.   In Massachusetts, there are default
>     > limits in state statutes, in particularly 30 mph in "thickly settled"
>     > areas (also defined in statute).  Some towns have adopted 25 mph in
>     > thickly settled areas, and they have signs at the town borders.
>     >
>     > It's an interesting question at what level to tag individual roads and
>     > when to have some way of expressing rules and therefore to expect all
>     > data consumers to evaluate the rules.  My quick reaction is that
>     > publishing rules for regions smaller than states is going to be too
>     > messy, vs just tagging the ways.
>     >
>     > With respect to maxspeed:default:residential, that's totally
>     unworkable
>     > in Massachusetts.  The law does not talk about roads or even
>     define them
>     > as residential or not.   The question for 30 (vs 40) is whether
>     the road
>     > is "thickly settled", which is
>     >
>     >   built up with structures devoted to business, or the territory
>     >   contiguous to any way where the dwelling houses are situated at such
>     >   distances as will average less than two hundred feet between
>     them for
>     >   a distance of a quarter of a mile or over.
>     >
>     > So there are many roads that are properly tagged "residential" but are
>     > not subject to the lower speed.
>     >
>     > In Mass, we have speed limit tags on almost all legal roads.  To me,
>     > that seems like the most straightforward approach, even if there are
>     > also defaults.
>     >
>     > If the general defaults are intended for routing, that seems more or
>     > less ok.  If they are intended to actually provide speed limit
>     guidance
>     > to drivers, I'm opposed, at least in jurisdictions where they aren't
>     > strictly reliable.
>     >
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