[Tagging] maxspeed:type vs source:maxspeed // StreetComplete

Jérôme Seigneuret jerome.seigneuret at gmail.com
Wed Sep 19 20:12:25 UTC 2018


    On Wed, 19 Sep 2018 at 13:30, Joseph Eisenberg
>     <joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com <mailto:joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>         So on the boundary=administrative admin_level=6 for Rogers
>         County, we could have something like maxspeed:type:default=45mph

Impossible in France,
Urban maxspeed area isn't in relation to administrative area. And this
fix the problem only on maxspeed parameter and not on other conditon
of access and what rules you have to respect.
Other problem is road classification in rural territoiries and there
is no city_limit board in all entrance of urban area highway physicaly
because there is no obligation in specific condition

that is why I proposed to use specific key

*highway:legal_type=urban or highway:legal_type:FR=agglomération *

This information is in relation with specific entrance/output city
road sign. But in certains conditon, there no output zone sign. The
typical case is : road is considerate as track legaly but is really
use as an residential condition.

legal information for France is :


   - urban area
   - "zone 30"
   - "zone de recontre" > living_street
   - "voie verte"
   - "chemin de halage" side of waterway=canal or river with boat access
   - "route pour automobile" set with thunk value but in fact that
cause lot of problem with conflict editing

What else... You can see cut on routing schema because you have a
living street in part of secondary highway... That don't make sens but
that is the really because specific key appeared and these specific
new key are just a shortcut to set implicit value that we can set on
historical schema key.

The problem is it's more simple to use highway=living_street in place
of highway=tertiary+maxpeed=20+cycleway=opposite

But in ID or other JOSM is't easy to set predifined type with couple
of key isn't it? There is plugin to set turn restriction

exemple is also container with container_type you need a couple of key
for work fine


Le mer. 19 sept. 2018 à 22:10, Tobias Zwick <osm at westnordost.de> a écrit :

> This is France though. The abutters-key would only need to be used in
> the United States in order to infer the default speed limits as only
> there, a difference is made between residence districts and business
> districts. In France and/or the rest of the world, what about perhaps
>
> urban=yes/no?
> (borrowed from source:maxspeed=FR:urban)
>
> But I do get the problem of different definitions of what is
> urban/"built-up area" and what not in different countries. Some
> countries define "built-up area" only within the limits defined by the
> "Welcome to Foo-Town" signs (e.g. Germany), some countries define it by
> the abutters (if there are houses, then it is built-up area, regardless
> of whether it is within city limits or not) and one by whether there is
> street lighting or not (United Kingdom).
>
> So, tagging something like highway:legal_type=built_up or urban=yes
> requires knowledge of how it is defined in the legislation. As much as
> it currently requires knowledge of how urban is defined when tagging
> source:maxspeed=FR:urban.
> I know that you know this, just saying because it is important to
> mention for the discussion here.
>
> On 19/09/2018 21:41, djakk djakk wrote:
> > Sound cool but there may be a gap between the reality and the law :
> > example : it looks like the countryside but legally it is inside the
> > built up area :
> > http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Dybpz_fHGEmWdLjfG7OMvQ/photo
> > There should be 2 tags : abutters=rural and highway:legal_type=built_up
> >
> >
> > djakk
> >
> >
> > Le mer. 19 sept. 2018 à 21:27, Tobias Zwick <osm at westnordost.de
> > <mailto:osm at westnordost.de>> a écrit :
> >
> >     Okay, so US-American legislation usually differs between "residential
> >     district" and "business district" for maxspeed defaults, as opposed
> to
> >     "built-up area" in most other countries.
> >
> >     Actually, there is a tag to denote that a street is in a residential
> >     district or business district. It comes from the early days of OSM
> where
> >     people were mapping with their GPS trackers for the lack of available
> >     aerial imagery. What about this?:
> >
> >     abutters=residential
> >     abutters=commercial
> >
> >     See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:abutters
> >
> >     On 19/09/2018 14:08, Greg Troxel wrote:
> >     > Tod Fitch <tod at fitchdesign.com <mailto:tod at fitchdesign.com>>
> writes:
> >     >
> >     >>> On Sep 18, 2018, at 6:19 PM, Joseph Eisenberg
> >     <joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com <mailto:joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >     >>>
> >     >>> So on the boundary=administrative admin_level=6 for Rogers
> >     County, we could have something like maxspeed:type:default=45mph
> >     >>
> >     >> Except that more typically there will be different default speed
> >     >> limits on each of the various OSM highway classifications. So
> maybe
> >     >> something more like “maxspeed:default:residential=25 mph”.
> >     >
> >     > I am not aware of *unposted* default limits in the US being
> >     different by
> >     > an entity smaller than state.   In Massachusetts, there are default
> >     > limits in state statutes, in particularly 30 mph in "thickly
> settled"
> >     > areas (also defined in statute).  Some towns have adopted 25 mph in
> >     > thickly settled areas, and they have signs at the town borders.
> >     >
> >     > It's an interesting question at what level to tag individual roads
> and
> >     > when to have some way of expressing rules and therefore to expect
> all
> >     > data consumers to evaluate the rules.  My quick reaction is that
> >     > publishing rules for regions smaller than states is going to be too
> >     > messy, vs just tagging the ways.
> >     >
> >     > With respect to maxspeed:default:residential, that's totally
> >     unworkable
> >     > in Massachusetts.  The law does not talk about roads or even
> >     define them
> >     > as residential or not.   The question for 30 (vs 40) is whether
> >     the road
> >     > is "thickly settled", which is
> >     >
> >     >   built up with structures devoted to business, or the territory
> >     >   contiguous to any way where the dwelling houses are situated at
> such
> >     >   distances as will average less than two hundred feet between
> >     them for
> >     >   a distance of a quarter of a mile or over.
> >     >
> >     > So there are many roads that are properly tagged "residential" but
> are
> >     > not subject to the lower speed.
> >     >
> >     > In Mass, we have speed limit tags on almost all legal roads.  To
> me,
> >     > that seems like the most straightforward approach, even if there
> are
> >     > also defaults.
> >     >
> >     > If the general defaults are intended for routing, that seems more
> or
> >     > less ok.  If they are intended to actually provide speed limit
> >     guidance
> >     > to drivers, I'm opposed, at least in jurisdictions where they
> aren't
> >     > strictly reliable.
> >     >
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-- 
Cordialement,
Jérôme Seigneuret
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