[Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

Marc Gemis marc.gemis at gmail.com
Thu Sep 20 11:11:53 UTC 2018


what about Aix-la-Chapelle (French) or Aken (Dutch) for Aachen in
Germany ? At least the destination signs in Flanders show "Aken
(Aachen)".
Or destinations "Parijs" signs for Paris (still +200 km to go) in Flanders.

For satnavs this does not matter, you just have to follow the
destination they tell you to follow. If you are using a map, it's
different of course. But is that a reason to add the name in  multiple
languages to the map ?

m


p.s. Luckily you didn't follow the exit signs for Lille while driving
in Flanders, otherwise you would have ended up here:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1282972
On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 3:12 PM djakk djakk <djakk.djakk at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello !
>
> I have in mind my trouble when driving back from Amsterdam toward France. I knew I had to pass through Lille but I did not see it on the directional signs. (No gps device back in the days ;-) ) I understood at last close to the border that the Rijsel I saw all the time on the signs means Lille >_<
>
> Rijsel is not used in France. But it would be very useful to display it on a map as it it used only several kilometers from the city.
>
>
> djakk
>
>
> Le mer. 19 sept. 2018 à 09:57, Jo <winfixit at gmail.com> a écrit :
>>
>> Every street in Brussels HAS a name:fr tag. They also ALL have a name:nl tag.
>>
>> An IPA representation also needs information about the language it is for. A name, even spelled with the exact same characters will be pronounced differently by a French speaker compared to a Ducht speaker. Sometimes very differently, sometimes it's simply a matter of which syllable to stress.
>>
>> Polyglot
>>
>> Op wo 19 sep. 2018 om 04:43 schreef Joseph Eisenberg <joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>> Paul,
>>>
>>> Thank you for your comments.
>>> Have you read the complete Proposal page? Perhaps I need to improve the wording to clarify some of your concerns
>>>
>>>>> >”I'd rather have local languages mapped rather than the language the renderer 'should' use.”
>>>>>
>>>>> By recording each name in a separate “name:<code>=*” tag, database users and map makers will be able to pick the best name for their audience.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The best name for the audience is the one which matches the signage.  It does me no good to see an English
>>>> translation of a Russian street sign.
>>>
>>>
>>> This is true if your database use case is rendering a map for a local audience. That's why the Openstreetmap Carto style renders names this way.
>>> This proposal will not change the way names are rendered on the standard map, except in the rare case where, for example, "name:fr=*" is present on a feature in France but the "name=*" tag is missing. In this case it will now render properly.
>>>
>>> But not all names are street or shop names. There are internationally know features, like Mt Everest and the Yellow River, which have well-known names in many names, which are quite different than the locally used name. Take a look at the current rendering of Nepal or China. The Openstreetmap Carto style is useful if you are in Nepal and want to find a sign point you towards Mt Everest, but a person sitting at their computer in Brazil will have trouble finding the mountain on the standard map style.
>>>
>>> The French style already renders names in French preferentially, but this loses the information about the locally used name. I agree that this is a problem!
>>> But with the current use of names, it's not possible to make an international map style that shows French names and the locally name at the same time.
>>> If you try to render "name:fr=*" and "name=*" together, you'll render the French name twice for every street in Brussels
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The only thing the map should render is the name as it is displayed on signage.
>>>
>>>
>>> For local routing yes, for Openstreetmap Carto yes, but all applications? Not always
>>>
>>>>
>>>> It would also be useful if the IPA characters representing how a local would pronounce that name is present so applications could feed that
>>>> to text-to-speech.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes! IPA is a great idea. I believe "name:ipa=*" could work for this. Want to write up a proposal? :-)
>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is also somewhat useful, for multilingual signage, to use name:xx and name:yy to hold the individual
>>>> language components of that name.
>>>
>>>
>>> You've got it! That's exactly what we want to encourage. If every street in Brussels has name:fr=xx and name:nl=yy, the French map style could render both.
>>> (<joke> Or being the French, they might just render "name:fr=yy", but there's nothing to be done about that. <joke>)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The local name still needs to be specified so that database users know what name or names are actually used “on the ground” vs foreign names. The default language format tag makes this possible, but separates this function from the name=* tag. And the proposal includes a language:local tag so that all local names can be shown, even those that are less common or in a minority language.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, no and thrice no.
>>>
>>>
>>> ??? What are you objecting to here? The "language:local=<lg>" tag?
>>> This will not be rendered by Openstreetmap Carto style or anyone really. It just lets database users that certain languages are actually locally used names, vs foreign names.
>>>
>>> For example, Puncak Trikora (id) / Wilhelmina Top (nl) / Mount Trikora (en) is the 2nd or 3rd tallest mountain in Indonesia. It's currently tagged with name="Puncak Trikora", which is appropriate, because that's the name used in Indonesian, the official langauge, and would be recognized by most people in the country. But there is also a local name in the Lani language, which is only known to people who live closest to the mountain and isn't used on any offical signs. This language:local= tag would show that the Lani name for the mountain is in fact a local name, not a foreign language name.
>>>
>>> It's probably not a tag that will be used much in Europe, where minority languages often have official recognition and signage, but it will be quite helpful in parts of the world with many languages, particularly for mountains and rivers that may have foreign names from the colonial period.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If this proposal is implemented, map makers and database users will have many more options for using names in data or as map labels.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why would they want to?  What possible use does it serve?  Most street names and even place names are opaque.
>>>> They may once have had meaning but no longer do.  Near me is "Market Lane" but at neither end of it is there a market.
>>>> Back in medieval times there was a market, perhaps, but it's been hundreds of years since there was a market there.
>>>> Several miles from me is Felin Wen.  That's Welsh for "White Mill."  It's not been a mill for many, many years.
>>>
>>>
>>> It's incorrect to tag name:en=White Mill, then, because the local name used by English speakers is "Felin Wen."
>>>
>>> I believe this is clear on the name:<lg>= wiki page and the name=* tag page, but I'd be happy to put in a clearer definition there, if necessary.
>>>
>>> I absolutely agree that no one should be making up translated name:<lg>= tags. The language-specific name tags should only be used for names that exist in the real world, on the ground.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> For example, a vector map on a smartphone app could show names in the user’s language by default. But when the user selects a feature by tapping or clicking, the name on the local language would also be shown.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Wrong way around.  The sane thing to do is show the local name, because that's what I'd be looking for on signage.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sure, good point, the other way around would be best for most purposes.
>>> App designers will now have the choice, and users can decide what settings they prefer.
>>> The app could even detect the user's location and use that to help guess what name lables to show.
>>> When I'm in China, I'll want to see the names in Chinese characters, but when I'm back home in the USA and just browsing around, it would be nice to be able to recognize the Yangtze or Yellow River, or Mount Everest, on the map.
>>>
>>> Joseph
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>>
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