[Tagging] Roles of route members (was: Merging tagging scheme on wiki pages of Hiking, ...)

Warin 61sundowner at gmail.com
Sat Aug 17 01:14:43 UTC 2019

My limited experience;

Gaps on the gpx route tend to be straight lines, ok when they are 
contiguous but where they back track it gets confusing.

Some initial thoughts on what I would do, and have done on some routes 
of interest to me ...

On 16/08/19 21:31, Peter Elderson wrote:
> Looked at de E2 relation in Yorkshire. It would require a lot of work 
> to make it work for data users beside rendering, and to fit it into 
> the E2 superroute as a whole.
> a. Nodes in the relation - not unheard of, but then with a role like 
> start. Should be removed.
Agreed. I don't think nodes belong on a route?
> b. 10 gaps. Needs investigating the cause; some just reflect wrong order.
Re ordering is fairly easy.
> c. There are a bunch of sorted chains of ways. Maybe just a sorting 
> problem, maybe more. Simple sort doesn't work because of the nodes and 
> nested relations.
Remove the nodes.
> d. Contains ways and other route relations. The other routes appear to 
> belong to another main variant running far to the west through 
> Yorkshire. These should be separately checked, sorted, oriented and 
> repaired, and then moved to a separate relation, in the right order 
> (north to south).

If the relations are 'alternatives' .. or even if they are not .. move 
them all to the end of the members and sort the way you have into some 
Then look at the gaps and see if any of the relations 'fit'.
> The eastern and western variants separate in Scotland, then run 
> separately through England. The east route is the one that connects to 
> the european E2 which follows the GR5 to Nice.
> The E2 has occasional signs all along the route, but the regular 
> waymarking is that of the constituting trails. I think that is enough 
> to say it's waymarked.
> Anybody knows who is mapping routes in England, knows his relation 
> stuff, and wants to fix this?

Not in England, and not that interested in looking at it in detail.
Deleting nodes is easy, even putting them into a relation and then 
placing that relation at the end so it does not interfere with sorting 
is easy.. if someone objects to the nodes being deleted.
Sorting and order the ways too is easy. Dealing with 'alternatives' 
needs some knowledge of the route, I don't have that.

> Fr gr Peter Elderson
> Op vr 16 aug. 2019 om 12:09 schreef Peter Elderson 
> <pelderson at gmail.com <mailto:pelderson at gmail.com>>:
>     Op vr 16 aug. 2019 om 10:59 schreef Andy Townsend
>     <ajt1047 at gmail.com <mailto:ajt1047 at gmail.com>>:
>         On 16/08/2019 08:50, Peter Elderson wrote:
>         > Josm of course. Is there another relation editor that can
>         handle large nested route relations spanning up to say 4000 Km?
>         P2 can, at least.  Other people seem to suggest that iD does a
>         reasonable job now too.
>     Sorry to disagree. P2 and ID are aware of relations and can do a
>     few basic things like adding/removing a way and shifting a way up
>     and down, in one relation at a time. If you maintain a lot of long
>     distance routes, that is painfully inadequate. Even more so if you
>     try to do it in a way that prepares the relations for data users,
>     currently meaning linear and gapless gpx-es for use in navigation
>     software, elevation profiles, and trip planners. You need
>     validation, gap detection, multiple relation windows with shifting
>     between windows, sorting, jump to first/last member, direction
>     reverse, download all members even those not in the bbox, ...
>         The more interesting question, though, is "why do you want
>         walking route
>         relations to be sorted".  The point that's already been made
>         about
>         routes that use the same way twice is a valid one, but almost
>         never
>         applies to walking route relations.  What are you trying to do
>         with e.g.
>         https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1976184 (the part of
>         E2* that
>         runs through Yorkshire) if it's not sorted?
>     If it's not sorted: display only. If I want to walk it, I want to
>     use OsmAnd navigation and or Garmin navigation. OsmAnd and Garmin
>     currently cannot use the relation directly, so I have to use a
>     gpx, and they recalculate the route for navigation. The gpx needs
>     to be continous, sorted and gapless, or it won't work. Overpass
>     and Waymarkedtrails can export to a routable gpx, if the relation
>     is one sorted and continous chain of ways.
>     So before exporting, I use JOSM relation editor, load the entire
>     thing, solve all gaps en remove duplications, move alternatives
>     one or more separate relations, then export the main route as gpx.
>     I also notify the operator of the website
>     https://www.longdistancepaths.eu/en/
>     so he can use the export for his trip planner. If he could depend
>     on routes to be flawless in OSM he could connect directly to it
>     for automatic periodical refresh.
>     If the route is on that planner, I would probably use that first
>     to plan the trip and route according to train and bus stations,
>     hotels & B&B's, and places on the way, then export the trip gpx
>     from that planner.
>     I will actually have a look at the E2 Yorkshire thing after lunch.
>     I can repair technical problems. If I need local survey I can
>     probably not fix it completely. Have to look at the history as
>     well, don't want to offend mappers over there with foreign ideas.
>         Best Regards,
>         Andy
>         * There are actually many other things wrong with that
>         relation. It's
>         not signed, so in a since here it "does not exist" but at the
>         very least
>         it should be tagged as such.  Also it's actually defined here
>         in terms
>         of the Wolds Way (which is signed), not in terms of individual
>         paths.  I
>         also doubt that the LDWA is in any sense an "operator".
>         ________________________________________

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