[Tagging] Dispute on tagging place=* in Turkmenistan

Allan Mustard allan at mustard.net
Wed Jan 2 04:43:52 UTC 2019


I put some examples in the table located here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Turkmenistan#Administrative_Structure

On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 11:17 PM Joseph Eisenberg <joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com>
wrote:

> It depends on if it is part of a continuous urban settlement or not.
>
> I use “suburb” and “neighborhood” for places that are considered to be
> part of a larger place. Usually these are mainly urban places, where most
> people are involved in services and industry rather than agriculture or
> forestry or fishing, and a significant percentage of worker travel to the
> larger town center for work.
>
> Sometimes a suburb has it’s own government and town council, as is common
> in the USA. In other cases (Eg Shanghai), a municipality includes area of
> farmland and villages that are clearly separate settlements. So I don’t
> think that the government status can be the distinguishing characteristic.
>
> Perhaps you have a particular example in mind?
>
> On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 12:30 PM Allan Mustard <allan at mustard.net> wrote:
>
>> By that definition, then, calling an autonomous village with its own
>> council a "neighbourhood" would be erroneous, correct?
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 10:24 PM Joseph Eisenberg <
>> joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In OSM a neighborhood is a named part of a larger settlement, usually a
>>> town or suburb or city, though in Indonesia some “desa” (villages) consist
>>> of a dozen named “kampung” (neighborhoods).
>>>
>>> Suburbs are also considered parts of larger towns or cities. So a city
>>> can be divided into a dozen suburbs, each of which is divided into a
>>> half-dozen neighborhoods
>>> On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 11:19 AM Allan Mustard <allan at mustard.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Very interesting.  In the Turkmen case, the classifications are defined
>>>> in law and involve both size (though population data are secret) and type
>>>> of governance structure (for full details please see
>>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Turkmenistan#Administrative_Structure).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is it fair to call a settlement a "neighbourhood" when it has a
>>>> governance structure (a village council with a chair who serves effectively
>>>> as the municipal manager/mayor)?  In my experience a "neighbourhood" lacks
>>>> any sort of governance structure aside from (sometimes) Neighborhood Watch.
>>>>
>>>> apm-wa
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 7:32 PM Joseph Eisenberg <
>>>> joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Those municipalities are relations of type=boundary and
>>>>> boundary=administrative with an appropriate admin_level, no?
>>>>>
>>>>> These are different from the OSM settlements, which are mapped as a
>>>>> node at the center of a city, town, village, hamlet or isolated dwelling or
>>>>> farm.
>>>>>
>>>>> While the pages suggest certain population ranges for each of these
>>>>> settled places, in the past they were defined by available services in
>>>>> England. A city had a cathedral or university, a town had a (full-time)
>>>>> marketplace, a village had a church, and a hamlet was too small for its own
>>>>> church but had more than one family. That’s the historic basis for the OSM
>>>>> system, though in modern times the standards are less certain.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suspect this sort of classification can work even in places that do
>>>>> not have good population figures available, like where I map in Indonesia.
>>>>> For example:
>>>>>
>>>>> a farm or isolated dwelling has only 1 or 2 households, a hamlet has a
>>>>> few families but no services (maybe there is a tiny kiosk or a very small
>>>>> place of worship)
>>>>>
>>>>> A village has some services but only for the local community; people
>>>>> do not travel to a village to go shopping, except from the closest farms or
>>>>> hamlets. Probably there is a primary school, certainly there is some sort
>>>>> of place of worship.
>>>>>
>>>>> A town is a significant local destination. People from the surrounding
>>>>> hamlets and villages will go to the nearest town to buy clothing, tools,
>>>>> specialty foods and other necessities. There may be some cultural and
>>>>> entertainment options, and usually some level of government services. Towns
>>>>> always have secondary education (high schools) in the countries that I have
>>>>> visited.
>>>>>
>>>>> A city has all this as well as major healthcare and educational
>>>>> institutions, and is often as administrative center for businesses,
>>>>> organizations (NGOs, religious) and local government. People travel to
>>>>> cities from the whole surrounding region, including from towns, for
>>>>> business, entertainment, cultural facilities etc. generally a city should
>>>>> have just about all of the services that a middle-class person would use
>>>>> (though the rich may need to go to larger cities for some specialty and
>>>>> luxury services - OSM doesn’t have a special class for large cities or
>>>>> global cities however)
>>>>>
>>>>> By population a hamlet has less than 1000 residents (often less than
>>>>> 100), and a city has over 50,000 (usually over 100,000), but the population
>>>>> cut-offs vary by region.
>>>>>
>>>>> A very isolated settlement may still qualify as a town with a
>>>>> relatively small population if it has the only high school, government
>>>>> office, supermarket and airport on a large island, for example - in this
>>>>> case the whole population of the island comes to the town for services even
>>>>> if they do not live there, so I would be comfortable tagging a settlement
>>>>> of 4000 people as a town on an island with 200,000 people but no other
>>>>> settlements over 1000 people in size.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is how I tag places in eastern Indonesia, where many villages and
>>>>> towns are very isolated. Perhaps this is similar in your country?
>>>>>
>>>>> But in a densely populated region, like Java (where there are 120,000
>>>>> million people on one island), even a settlement with 20,000 people might
>>>>> just be a conglomeration of farming villages that hardly qualifies as a
>>>>> town, and a town could grow to 200,000 residents and still lack any
>>>>> characteristics of a city.
>>>>> On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 8:46 AM Allan Mustard <allan at mustard.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Looking for some guidance here from the tagging experts.  Please see
>>>>>> the dispute section on the Turkmenistan wiki discussion page
>>>>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Turkmenistan#Disputed:_Suggested_Place_Tags_for_Administrative_Subdivisions
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The nub is that I advocate classifying Turkmenistan's municipalities
>>>>>> based on their official status according to the host government (see the
>>>>>> wiki article Districts in Turkmenistan).  Another mapper, Aka_Bob,
>>>>>> disagrees and insists that there are OSM guidelines based on population (I
>>>>>> note that the OSM place=village article says a village can have up to
>>>>>> 10,000 population, which in the United States is laughable--that would be a
>>>>>> town or a city).  Aka_Bob edited that section of the wiki article
>>>>>> unilaterally without first consulting local mappers.  I have no intention
>>>>>> of entering into an edit war, but rather want to take this out to the
>>>>>> community for discussion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd like to hear what people think.  Opening classification of
>>>>>> Turkmen muncipalities to free interpretation rather than a standard
>>>>>> official classification strikes me as a recipe for chaos, particularly
>>>>>> since official population data have not been published for over a decade
>>>>>> (the 2012 and 2017 censuses were made secret) but maybe that's just me.
>>>>>> What do you think?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards and Happy New Year to all!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> apm-wa
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