[Tagging] Dispute on tagging place=* in Turkmenistan

Joseph Eisenberg joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com
Wed Jan 2 04:16:28 UTC 2019

It depends on if it is part of a continuous urban settlement or not.

I use “suburb” and “neighborhood” for places that are considered to be part
of a larger place. Usually these are mainly urban places, where most people
are involved in services and industry rather than agriculture or forestry
or fishing, and a significant percentage of worker travel to the larger
town center for work.

Sometimes a suburb has it’s own government and town council, as is common
in the USA. In other cases (Eg Shanghai), a municipality includes area of
farmland and villages that are clearly separate settlements. So I don’t
think that the government status can be the distinguishing characteristic.

Perhaps you have a particular example in mind?

On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 12:30 PM Allan Mustard <allan at mustard.net> wrote:

> By that definition, then, calling an autonomous village with its own
> council a "neighbourhood" would be erroneous, correct?
> On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 10:24 PM Joseph Eisenberg <
> joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com> wrote:
>> In OSM a neighborhood is a named part of a larger settlement, usually a
>> town or suburb or city, though in Indonesia some “desa” (villages) consist
>> of a dozen named “kampung” (neighborhoods).
>> Suburbs are also considered parts of larger towns or cities. So a city
>> can be divided into a dozen suburbs, each of which is divided into a
>> half-dozen neighborhoods
>> On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 11:19 AM Allan Mustard <allan at mustard.net> wrote:
>>> Very interesting.  In the Turkmen case, the classifications are defined
>>> in law and involve both size (though population data are secret) and type
>>> of governance structure (for full details please see
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Turkmenistan#Administrative_Structure).
>>> Is it fair to call a settlement a "neighbourhood" when it has a
>>> governance structure (a village council with a chair who serves effectively
>>> as the municipal manager/mayor)?  In my experience a "neighbourhood" lacks
>>> any sort of governance structure aside from (sometimes) Neighborhood Watch.
>>> apm-wa
>>> On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 7:32 PM Joseph Eisenberg <
>>> joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Those municipalities are relations of type=boundary and
>>>> boundary=administrative with an appropriate admin_level, no?
>>>> These are different from the OSM settlements, which are mapped as a
>>>> node at the center of a city, town, village, hamlet or isolated dwelling or
>>>> farm.
>>>> While the pages suggest certain population ranges for each of these
>>>> settled places, in the past they were defined by available services in
>>>> England. A city had a cathedral or university, a town had a (full-time)
>>>> marketplace, a village had a church, and a hamlet was too small for its own
>>>> church but had more than one family. That’s the historic basis for the OSM
>>>> system, though in modern times the standards are less certain.
>>>> I suspect this sort of classification can work even in places that do
>>>> not have good population figures available, like where I map in Indonesia.
>>>> For example:
>>>> a farm or isolated dwelling has only 1 or 2 households, a hamlet has a
>>>> few families but no services (maybe there is a tiny kiosk or a very small
>>>> place of worship)
>>>> A village has some services but only for the local community; people do
>>>> not travel to a village to go shopping, except from the closest farms or
>>>> hamlets. Probably there is a primary school, certainly there is some sort
>>>> of place of worship.
>>>> A town is a significant local destination. People from the surrounding
>>>> hamlets and villages will go to the nearest town to buy clothing, tools,
>>>> specialty foods and other necessities. There may be some cultural and
>>>> entertainment options, and usually some level of government services. Towns
>>>> always have secondary education (high schools) in the countries that I have
>>>> visited.
>>>> A city has all this as well as major healthcare and educational
>>>> institutions, and is often as administrative center for businesses,
>>>> organizations (NGOs, religious) and local government. People travel to
>>>> cities from the whole surrounding region, including from towns, for
>>>> business, entertainment, cultural facilities etc. generally a city should
>>>> have just about all of the services that a middle-class person would use
>>>> (though the rich may need to go to larger cities for some specialty and
>>>> luxury services - OSM doesn’t have a special class for large cities or
>>>> global cities however)
>>>> By population a hamlet has less than 1000 residents (often less than
>>>> 100), and a city has over 50,000 (usually over 100,000), but the population
>>>> cut-offs vary by region.
>>>> A very isolated settlement may still qualify as a town with a
>>>> relatively small population if it has the only high school, government
>>>> office, supermarket and airport on a large island, for example - in this
>>>> case the whole population of the island comes to the town for services even
>>>> if they do not live there, so I would be comfortable tagging a settlement
>>>> of 4000 people as a town on an island with 200,000 people but no other
>>>> settlements over 1000 people in size.
>>>> This is how I tag places in eastern Indonesia, where many villages and
>>>> towns are very isolated. Perhaps this is similar in your country?
>>>> But in a densely populated region, like Java (where there are 120,000
>>>> million people on one island), even a settlement with 20,000 people might
>>>> just be a conglomeration of farming villages that hardly qualifies as a
>>>> town, and a town could grow to 200,000 residents and still lack any
>>>> characteristics of a city.
>>>> On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 8:46 AM Allan Mustard <allan at mustard.net> wrote:
>>>>> Looking for some guidance here from the tagging experts.  Please see
>>>>> the dispute section on the Turkmenistan wiki discussion page
>>>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Turkmenistan#Disputed:_Suggested_Place_Tags_for_Administrative_Subdivisions
>>>>> The nub is that I advocate classifying Turkmenistan's municipalities
>>>>> based on their official status according to the host government (see the
>>>>> wiki article Districts in Turkmenistan).  Another mapper, Aka_Bob,
>>>>> disagrees and insists that there are OSM guidelines based on population (I
>>>>> note that the OSM place=village article says a village can have up to
>>>>> 10,000 population, which in the United States is laughable--that would be a
>>>>> town or a city).  Aka_Bob edited that section of the wiki article
>>>>> unilaterally without first consulting local mappers.  I have no intention
>>>>> of entering into an edit war, but rather want to take this out to the
>>>>> community for discussion.
>>>>> I'd like to hear what people think.  Opening classification of Turkmen
>>>>> muncipalities to free interpretation rather than a standard official
>>>>> classification strikes me as a recipe for chaos, particularly since
>>>>> official population data have not been published for over a decade (the
>>>>> 2012 and 2017 censuses were made secret) but maybe that's just me.  What do
>>>>> you think?
>>>>> Best regards and Happy New Year to all!
>>>>> apm-wa
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