[Tagging] Superroutes - good, bad or ugly?

Warin 61sundowner at gmail.com
Thu Mar 14 23:14:12 UTC 2019

On 15/03/19 04:39, Paul Allen wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 at 16:44, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> <dieterdreist at gmail.com <mailto:dieterdreist at gmail.com>> wrote:
>     > On 14. Mar 2019, at 16:49, Tony Shield <tony.shield999 at gmail.com
>     <mailto:tony.shield999 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>     >
>     > Can they currently be edited with JOSM?
>     of course, you simply add a relation as member to another relation.
> Can you?  It's not clear to me from the documentation that I can do 
> that in a way that achieves what
> I want to do and is compatible with accepted usage.  If you can tell 
> me how to do that I'll be very
> happy.
> Let me be clear.  I want to decompose a route into segments and then 
> construct some sort of
> relation (ordinary, superroute or whatever) that assembles them in 
> sequence.

Take a look at some that already exist.
Super relation 176684 in
You can see it is composed of 4 relations. Using the elevation profile 
you can follow the route from south to north so they are in sequence 
(there are a few out of order bits within the sub relations .. grr) and 
it finishes up with the alternative routes (very incomplete) that are a 
bit random along the length.  So it is possible to organise them into a 

> I want to do this
> because I have a route which traverses some ways twice.  I want to do 
> this because the same route
> has ways which are traversed twice (A, B, C, D) but the first time the 
> stop at C is ignored (you can
> neither board nor alight there) and the second time the stop at C is 
> usable (you can board or alight).
> I want to do this because although the route is circular, it is 
> "hairy" (in the mathematical sense), it's
> not an "O" but an "O=".  The same way is traversed twice in opposite 
> directions: in a non-circular
> route that would be two variants of a route master but this is a 
> circular route.
> Being able to decompose the route solves several problems.  As a 
> single route it is a real pain
> to edit because the tools don't fully support the same way appearing 
> twice (maybe there's a JOSM
> plugin that does it better).  I still have a gap on the route 
> according to JOSM validator but I
> can't spot it.  It doesn't show as a red dot in the edit relation 
> table, I can't see it by scrolling through
> the list of ways and looking at them, when I go to the validator and 
> try zooming to the problem
> nothing happens.  It's in one of the ways that gets traversed twice 
> and it's driving me crazy.  I think
> that subroutes would make it a lot easier for me to zero in on the 
> problem.

Route with the same way twice? These 2 have the same ways twice - in 
different directions
relation 3550083
relation 7258397

Both edited in JOSM - so it is possible to add the same way twice .. it 
does give a warning pop up that you click through.
That pop up has an option to permanently deny entering things twice... 
oh and are you in expert mode?

> As a single route it's impossible to figure out by simple inspection 
> of the query tool:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8592409#map=14/52.0860/-4.6644
> You tell me where it goes in what sequence without delving deeply into 
> the relation.  I'll give
> you a hint: it starts and ends here: 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3642998002
> Want another hint?  It doesn't just start and end there, it also stops 
> there in the middle of its
> route.  Without looking at the details of the relation, tell me where 
> it goes next after that
> starting point.  Being able to decompose it into segments would allow 
> people to see a
> sequence of segments in order (such as via umap) and it would be 
> obvious what the route
> is.  Having segments would allow me to deal with the stop that is 
> passed twice (in the same
> direction) but is only used once - it would appear on one segment but 
> not the other.

I don't see the query tool as being appropriate for routes. What you 
would probably like is something like the waymarked trails but for 
public transport... ???

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