[Tagging] I have been tagging mosques wrong all along

Warin 61sundowner at gmail.com
Sun Mar 24 00:55:39 UTC 2019


On 24/03/19 10:52, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> I believe that the form and functions of Mosques is variable. The
> original poster (Jean-Marc Liotier) said that they are mapping in the
> Sahel, the Muslim-majority region along the southern border of the
> Sahara desert in Africa. This is a semi-arid, tropical region where
> most people are Sunni muslims from the Maliki school, and they share
> some cultural similarities. But their practices are different than
> those of Shia / Shiite people in Iran, or the Muslim diaspora in
> Europe and North America.
>
> I live in Indonesia, where the majority practice Sunni Islam, under
> the Shafi'i school of jurisprudence. In the past there was strong Sufi
> influence, and there are still a number of pilgrimage sites where
> people visit the tombs of Saints or places associated with these
> religious heroes.
>
> Since the weather is always warm, most Indonesia mosque buildings are
> open on 2 or 3 sides, but the whole area will be inclosed by a fence
> or wall that marks the borders of the mosque area, including the areas
> for ritual washing and often classrooms for children's religious
> education. Mosques are supposed to always be open to the public for
> prayer 5 times a day.
>
> A mosque ('masjid", from Arabic) is not just a place of prayer here in
> Indonesia. There is a different word (also from Arabic), "musholla" or
> "musyola", for a simple prayer room. This can be a small room plus an
> area for washing, within a larger secular structure such as an
> airport, train station, retail mall, or government office. It can also
> be a small separate building in a residential area. I believe a
> musholla / musyola is considered a temporary place of prayer, while a
> masjid (mosque) is land that is permanently dedicated as an Islamic
> place of worship, at least in this school of Islam.
>
> I map the central masjid building as a building=mosque, because
> Indonesians refer to the building itself as a mosque, and this is
> where the actual worship services and prayers take place, while some
> of the other buildings may be offices or classrooms, not specifically
> places of prayer or public assembly.
>
> I would not map a musholla as a building=mosque, but I'm not actually
> sure what would be the best tagging for these prayer rooms. The
> (rather outdated) Indonesian tagging guidelines suggest tagging as an
> amenity=place_of_worship for both, which seems imprecise.
> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Indonesian_Tagging_Guidelines#Place_of_Worship)
>
> Here's 2 interesting links to discussions about the meaning of
> "mosque" vs mushollah:
> https://www.albalagh.net/general/0074.shtml
> https://islamqa.info/en/answers/170800/when-does-a-place-become-a-mosque
>
> It's hard to decide when to use landuse=religious. If the whole land
> area is already tagged as amenity=place_of_worship then database users
> already know that the land area is used for religious purposes. But if
> only the main building is mapped as amenity=place_of_worship then it
> would make sense to map the surrounding land, within the fence or
> wall, as landuse=religious.
>
> In the United States, most "Islamic Centres" have all the religious
> activities indoors, partially due to cold weather in the winter. In
> this case I would definitely tag the main mosque building as the
> place_of_worship, rather than the whole land area. Certainly a
> suburban mosque, where most of the land is a surface parking lot, does
> not need to be tagged amenity=place_of_worship out to the edge of the
> parking.

Parking areas associated with a shop I tag as landuse=retail together with the shop.
See no reason why things associated with a religious feature should not also be similarly tagged - they are for the use of that feature and so should be included as part of the features land use ???

>
> On 3/24/19, Paul Allen <pla16021 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 at 17:41, Tom Pfeifer <t.pfeifer at computer.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 23.03.2019 18:19, Paul Allen wrote:
>>>> Until you mentioned outside prayer, the obvious solution to a building
>>> complex would
>>>> be a multipolygon.
>>> No, there is no MP needed. As there are several distinct objects used for
>>> worshiping, it would even
>>> be wrong.
>>>
>> I disagree with that statement.  If they're all part of the same mosque, an
>> MP is not incorrect.
>>
>> You'd have to find out if Muslims consider those different buildings to be
>> components of
>> the same mosque or not.  I doubt that they would, but maybe you're right.
>>
>> If we follow your thinking, only the pews in a church are for worshipping.
>> The confessional is for
>> confessing, and the pulpit is for preaching.  Most people would consider
>> them to be all part of
>> the same church.  Even if, say, the confessionals were in a different
>> building (I've never heard
>> of such, but it's a remote possibility).  At one time, in some
>> denominations, the pews were
>> segregated between rich and poor and/or between men and women.  Different
>> places of
>> worship or the same?  Some universities have buildings in different
>> locations scattered around
>> a city: same university or each a different university?
>>
>> --
>> Paul
>>
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