[Tagging] Barrier=berm

[Volker Schmidt]

I was asked what I meant with


   -  (this tag is purpose-free)

My sloppy way of saying the tag is used to describe a shape (nearly)
independently of its purpose.

"embankment" in OSM is used in this multi -purpose way whereas "dyke" is
only used for a narrow range of objects that are related to water.

I acknowledge the expression is not very precise.

Volker

On Fri, 29 Nov 2019, 22:16 Joseph Eisenberg, <joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I agree that there is a need to define the correct way to tag the
> center-line of a two-sided embankment or earthworks.
>
> This was mentioned previously in the discussion starting here:
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-May/045798.html
> and continued here:
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-May/045798.html
>
> It could be called an "earthwork": "a raised area of earth made,
> especially in the past,
> for defense against enemy attack", or "embankment" or "rampart"
> instead of "berm".
>
> This is in use 200 times as barrier=earthworks
> (https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/barrier=earthworks)
>
> or historic=earthworks - 196 times
> (https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/historic=earthworks)
>
> or perhaps barrier=earth_bank - 184 times
> (https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/barrier=earth_bank)
>
> There are a few uses of barrier=rampart and military=rampart.
>
> In contrast, barrier=berm has been used only 68 times, and
> man_made=berm 14 times.
>
> But there are even more uses of embankment=yes as a standalone tag
> along the center of an earthworks/berm/rampart/embankment, and there
> is also quite a number of features tagged man_made=embankment +
> embankment=both or embankment=two_sided
> (https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/embankment=both and
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/embankment=two_sided > 600)
>
> I don't think it would be a good idea to redefine man_made=embankment
> to be two-sided. And using embankment=yes alone is a bit of a problem
> since it is a unique key.
>
> But I'm not convinced that "barrier=berm" or "man_made=berm" is better
> than "barrier=embankment"
>
> Also, I would oppose mapping berms as areas, especially if they are
> under the "barrier=" key - these features are (almost) always linear,
> and because "man_made=embankment" can be used to make the exact
> location of the top of the embankment.
>
> On 11/28/19, Graeme Fitzpatrick <graemefitz1 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, 28 Nov 2019 at 20:47, Volker Schmidt <voschix at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>    - First of all when I see a both-sided sloped linear elevation I do
> >>    not know I see a berm.because it is a rarely used term
> >>
> >> Can you see a pile of dirt? If so, it's a berm. If it's a bricks,
> blocks,
> > rocks, concrete, wooden, steel or any other type of construction, it's
> not!
> > I agree it's not very common in normal usage, but would be quite common
> in
> > any engineering context, & there are any number of OSM terms which are
> very
> > specialised!
> >
> >>
> >>    - Second it is ill-defined from the shape point of view: it can
> define
> >>    a step in an earth wall and it can mean an earth wall with sloped
> >> sides
> >>
> >> Yep, either one could be a berm.
> >
> >>
> >>    - Fourth it can describe man-made or natural objects.
> >>
> >> I saw reference to berm also being used to describe a line of debris
> > thrown up on a beach by a storm, however, that wouldn't be a permanent
> > feature, as it would be changed by the next storm, or human use of the
> > beach, so we wouldn't map it.
> >
> > Let's go back and define what we need
> >>
> >
> > Agree with everything you say here
> >
> >
> >>
> >>    -  (this tag is purpose-free)
> >>
> >> Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "purpose-free"?
> >
> > Thinking about it we may only need to add a new man_made=slope_base tag.
> >> Packaging this together with the opposite man_made=embankment in a
> >> "slope"
> >> relation, this would give us the possibility to model even complex
> >> objects.
> >> Without a relation a closed  man-made=slope_base way could be used to
> >> draw
> >> the footprint of levees/dykes. The use could be similar to
> >> water=riverbank.
> >>
> >
> > I did suggest area=slope or similar, to map the area of levee walls in
> > discussion about large flood control levees a couple of weeks ago, but it
> > didn't seem to go down very well?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Graeme
> >
>
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