[Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

muralito at montevideo.com.uy muralito at montevideo.com.uy
Thu Aug 6 00:13:49 UTC 2020



----- Mensaje original -----
> De: "Joseph Eisenberg" <joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com>
> Para: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" <tagging at openstreetmap.org>
> Enviados: Miércoles, 5 de Agosto 2020 19:46:06
> Asunto: Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

> Here's another issue I would like muralito at montevideo.com.uy to address:
> In Venezuela the second largest city is on a body of water called "Lago de
> Maracaibo":

> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/11334852

> As mentioned in Wikipedia, local Venezolanos often refer to this as a lake
> (lago), not an estuary or bay:

> Lake Maracaibo ( Spanish : Lago de Maracaibo , pronounced [ˈlaɣo ðe maɾaˈkajβo]
> ( listen ) ) is a large brackish tidal bay (or tidal estuary ) in Venezuela and
> an "inlet of the Caribbean Sea ". [1] [2] [3] [4] It is sometimes considered a
> lake rather than a bay or lagoon . [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] It
> is connected to the Gulf of Venezuela by Tablazo Strait , which is 5.5
> kilometres (3.4 mi) wide at the northern end.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Maracaibo

> So, does this mean that Lago de Maracaibo could be mapped as natural=water or
> waterway=riverbank instead, if local mappers feel it is a lake rather than a
> tidal bay / estuary?

> (It is currently mapped with natural=coastline and with a relation tagged as
> natural=bay, like most other similar features in OpenStreetMap, with the
> exception of the Rio de la Plata)

I have never been there, but from the aerial photos it is clearly on the continent and there is nothing oceanic, despite having communication with the sea, so it should not be labeled natural = coastline in the same way that the Great Lakes or other large endorheic lakes no matter how big they are. In fact apparently some renderers adapted and if they draw the polygons natural = water at low zoom levels. 

I'm convinced that the problem is the renderer, not the data. If the map shows what people expect they do not look the details and do not find the errors in the data, like this case, that a possible error goes unnoticed.

It would be one of the many examples where, in my opinion, the coastline is poorly located in OSM, but I don't know what is the position of the Venezuelan OSM community.

I also asked for other places like Elbe River, or River Crouch, where the natural=coastline is placed more than 26 km from the sea. Very weird. This is the opposite problem in the data, but people does not notice because in small zooms the renderer seems to simplifies the coastline details, and this coastline is not even a pixel in zoom 5 or 6.



> – Joseph Eisenberg

> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 2:52 AM Alan Mackie < aamackie at gmail.com > wrote:



> > On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 at 01:34, < muralito at montevideo.com.uy > wrote:



> >> ----- Mensaje original -----
> >> > De: "Joseph Eisenberg" < joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com >
> >> > Para: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" < tagging at openstreetmap.org >
> >> > Enviados: Martes, 4 de Agosto 2020 16:56:31
> >> > Asunto: Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

> >> > The graphics in this document are mainly models of current flow, rather than
> >> > actual measurements, but it is mentioned that the average current flow,
> >> > neglecting wind, is only 0.1 m/s in the Rio de la Plata. Since winds of 5 m/s
> >> > are routine according to the paper, the currents vary strongly based on winds
> >> > and tides.
> >> > See for example the figura on pages 26 to 37 which show the modeled variation
> >> > with different wind direction. I don't see a modeling of the affect of tides -
> >> > this appears to be the average current over the tidal cycle? But I admit I have
> >> > not visited this area.

>>> Sure its a model, but the model is validated by drifting bouys, as you can check
> >> in page 37.
> >> i just translated here.
>>> "The drift buoy trajectories launched in the summer of 2003 and reported by
>>> Piola et al (2003) showed, in consistency with the modeled solutions,
>>> relatively low average speeds (20-30 cm / s) in the middle part of the river
>>> and higher speeds in the outer sector, mainly towards the Uruguayan coast,
> >> where they exceeded 60 cm / s (Fig. 33)."

> >> > My main objection is the inclusion of Bahia Samborombon in the estuary. The
> >> > charts and satellite images show very little influence from river water in that
> >> > area, as well as in the section of coast east of Montevideo.

>>> You are misreading the imagery. What generaly available imagery shows in this
>>> area is a change of colour, which is dark brown to the NW, and more clear to
>>> the SE. This is caused for the change of turbidity, located near the 5m
> >> isobath.

>> The figures in both the document linked by muralito and the one previously
>> linked by Andy seem to show that flow outside of the line from Montevideo to
>> Punta Piedras is largely dominated by wind and ocean conditions and not by the
>> river flow. Visible sediment in the water was discounted earlier for defining
>> outer limits as it often persists far into areas clearly considered ocean (see
>> Christoph's example off the coast of China), but photos showing the sediment
>> also show it starting to disperse after this point. Some wind directions seem
> > to dominate the flow even further upstream.

>> As this discussion continues I think this looks more and more like a river that
> > drains into a sheltered bay than one that drains directly into the ocean.

> >> > – Joseph Eisenberg

> >> > On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 12:42 PM < muralito at montevideo.com.uy > wrote:

> >> >> ----- Mensaje original -----
> >> >> > De: "Kevin Kenny" < kevin.b.kenny at gmail.com >
> >> >> > Para: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" < tagging at openstreetmap.org >
> >> >> > Enviados: Martes, 4 de Agosto 2020 16:28:55
> >> >> > Asunto: Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

> >> >> > On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:18 PM Joseph Eisenberg < joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com >
> >> >> > wrote:

> >> >> >> These rules would exclude the lower Rio De La Plata and the lower part of the
> >> >> >> mouth of the Saint Lawrence river, as well as other wide estuaries where winds
> >> >> >> and tides have more influence on surface water flow than does the discharge of
> >> >> >> the river. It would not prevent mapping the Hudson mouth at the southern tip of
> >> >> >> Manhattan, because the flow is strong all the way to New York Harbor, if I
> >> >> >> understand correctly.

> >> >> > The Hudson definitely reverses flow. One of its names among the First Peoples
> >> >> > translates to 'the river flows both ways.' The division in the flow lies less
> >> >> > in the fraction of the tidal cycle than the speed of the current. It flows
> >> >> > 'upstream' for half the time, 'downstream' for half, but the downstream current
> >> >> > is considerably swifter.

> >> >> Rio de la Plata would not be excluded, as you can read in the document [8] i
> >> >> linked in my first mail, for example, see some graphics of the flow of the
> >> >> river in page 25.
> >> >> [8] DINAMA. Salinidad
> >> >> https://www.dinama.gub.uy/oan/documentos/uploads/2016/12/patrones_circulacion.pdf

> >> >> Regaards,
> >> >> M.

> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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> >> >> Informate si aplicás aquí.

> >> >> mvdfactura.uy

> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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> >> Informate si aplicás aquí.

> >> mvdfactura.uy

> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Con el nuevo beneficio fiscal, tu facturación electrónica puede ser sin costo.

Informate si aplicás aquí.

mvdfactura.uy

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