[Tagging] POI data and Addresses on areas - Was: addresses on buildings

Volker Schmidt voschix at gmail.com
Sat Jan 11 11:31:40 UTC 2020


Just to illustrate the problem, try find this address on OSM:
13, Via Aeroporto, Orio al Serio, Italy
You get some ten results most of them with the correct address.
Then try to find "Bergamo Orio al Serio Airport" and check the address.
It's the one above.
Than try to route to the Airport, say with OSRM.
OSRM tries to route you samehwere in the middle of the airport area, but
luckily realizes that there is a fence, and stops there (by pur chance not
far away form the real entrance BTW

Now coming to the analysis above.
Very precise and clear.
Every jurisdiction may have a different definition of what an address is.
In my specific case the Italian address definition, i.e. the entrance to
the building from the public road/footway network, or part of building with
that address, seems to be very precise, and is the one which the
authorities need to know when they want you (for whatever reason).

Now let's go to Big G to find "Bergamo Orio al Serio Airport". They find
the same address and place the pointer in the middle of the grass near the
runways. Similar to OSM. They are better than OSRM when it comes to
routing. The Route stops in the short term car-park near the entrance and
shows yo how to reach on foot the passenger entrance.

Not enough.
I checked the address of the aiport for their web site.
<https://www.milanbergamoairport.it/en/>
surpeise, suroprise, it's different:
Milan Bergamo AirportVia Orio al Serio 49/51
24050 Grassobbio (BG) Italia



On Sat, 11 Jan 2020 at 03:41, Jarek Piórkowski <jarek at piorkowski.ca> wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Jan 2020 at 18:04, Florian Lohoff <f at zz.de> wrote:
> > On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 09:34:32AM -0500, Jarek Piórkowski wrote:
> > > On Fri, 10 Jan 2020 at 04:22, Florian Lohoff <f at zz.de> wrote:
> > > > OTOH in the dense urban areas you have the problem of Address for
> road A
> > > > nearer to Road B. So you get navigated to the wrong spot on the road
> > > > network. This view is generated with the OSRM Car profile and mapping
> > > > all addr:* objects with the "nearest" function and comparing the
> highway
> > > > name and the addr:street. If both are "filled" and non equal -> fail.
> > > >
> > > >
> https://osm.zz.de/dbview/?db=addresses-owl&layer=namemismatch#51.98848,8.49342,18z
> > >
> > > In the case of Cheruskerstraße 107g it looks like by far the easiest
> > > way to solve it is for the router to take footways into account. Or I
> > > guess we could create a new tag for "motor vehicle stop location to
> > > get to a given address" to work around router shortcomings...?
> >
> > How can a router take footways into account when your mode of transport
> > is by car? Can it take ALL footways in the routing graph? Only some?
> > Which?
>
> I guess it could be only those footways that change which motor
> vehicle road is nearest to a given destination. That is, ignore most
> sidewalks.
>
> --
>
> I was thinking about this whole thing earlier. Caution, wall of text.
>
> At the risk of being philosophical, what is an address exactly?
>
> Our wiki doesn't specify which address we're talking about:
>
> 1. Where lettermail is delivered?
> 2. Where a package or a shipment of a given size is delivered?
> 3. Where a vehicle of a given type making the delivery would stop?
> 4. Where a pizza is delivered?
> 5. Where a vehicle of a given type making the pizza delivery would stop?
> 6. Where emergency responders go?
> 7. What a government says?
>
> In the specific case of Cheruskerstraße 107g in Bielefeld given above,
> I'm guessing (with some familiarity with German urban built form, but
> not the specific area): #2, #4, #6 are a front door of the building
> tagged with the address; #1 might be away from that front door; #3 and
> #5 are probably along Cheruskerstr. about 80 m away or maybe in the
> little parking lot near the intersection with Auf den Köppen; #7 is
> unknown - if that complex is a condominium or similar structure, 107g
> might not even exist as far as land registry is concerned.
>
> In some regions, land plots are identified by addresses (that is,
> owners are registered with a cadastral authority or a land registry as
> owning a piece of land identified as 123 Main Street). Given enough
> data with a suitable licence, we could have each land plot as a way
> and tag it with the address. These land plots might have zero, one, or
> more buildings on it. In some regions, some of these buildings are
> commonly identified as having the same address, some (like garages or
> sheds) usually not. The boundaries of the building are often more
> verifiable than the boundaries of the land plot, because they are more
> reliably seen on satellite imagery.
>
> In some regions, cadastral registries do not identify plots with
> addresses but with other schemes.
>
> In another definition, an address is somewhere where the local mail
> service (or sometimes competitive mail services) delivers lettermail.
> In some regions this is usually near a building, a mailbox attached to
> the building itself, or a mail slot in the building door. In some
> other regions, this is usually a mailbox near the nearest public road
> to the building, and some yet other regions have community mailboxes,
> so the lettermail or small package delivery location is quite far away
> from where the people receiving this mail actually live.
>
> Some buildings have more than one postal address. I suppose there are
> also cases of buildings that occupy more than one legal land plot. And
> of course there are addresses that might have mailboxes or accept
> deliveries but not actually have a building associated with that
> address.
>
> In cases where land plots are identified by addresses, the cadastral
> address might not match the postal address (due to drift of
> definitions over time like the London post town or the Ontario
> municipal amalgamations, or just straight-up database errors, or
> inconsistencies: Canada Post and City of Toronto don't agree on
> spelling of several street names).
>
> There are also deliveries, such as packages, larger shipments, or food
> delivery. They don't necessarily go the same location as the
> lettermail mailbox. In some cases a motor vehicle will stop as close
> as you can to the door and deliver; in other cases there are explicit
> systems of driveways and loading docks often quite far away from main
> entrances or mailboxes. In some cases, the locally prescribed way of
> making a delivery is to use a designated delivery parking area and
> deliver the last meters on foot or with a cargo trolley. You might
> want to know both where to park a vehicle and where the receiver's
> door is. Then there's increasingly different kinds of delivery
> vehicles, some with different legal access rights ("zero emission
> vehicles only"), some with different physical dimensions (bicycle
> couriers), in many cases both, so each might need a separate
> delivery-stopping area.
>
> Emergency services may also use addresses to direct responders. Source
> of these addresses is usually either cadastral or postal, sometimes
> other. In some cases emergency responders might define a location by a
> reference to a street address but accessed in a substantially
> different way ("in the alley behind 640 Union Street", e.g.
> http://archive.is/X6zQR ).
>
> I suppose there are some cases where locations are identified by a
> commonly known address but none of the above actually apply (does
> Royal Mail deliver to 10 Downing Street? maybe?). I guess we can
> ignore made-up but functioning postal addresses like "Santa Claus,
> North Pole, H0H0H0".
>
> And that's before getting into locations that don't have a cadastral
> authority, a concept of land or building ownership, or a public postal
> service.
>
> In terms of surveying and verifiability, basically the only thing
> surveyable is an address displayed on the property by its owner or
> operator, whether on a building, on a mailbox, or an address tag on a
> plot of land. For buildings, bounds can often be estimated from
> streetside survey coupled with aerial imagery (but not always, as in
> the case of complex buildings); for land, bounds are often not easily
> verifiable. Where suitably-licensed datasets exist, they could be used
> to add in boundaries or unsigned addresses at cost of surveyability.
> Where displayed by owner, addresses will sometimes be on a building
> (thus identifying at least one building with that address), sometimes
> on a mailbox, sometimes both. Sometimes a mailbox address strongly
> implies a building address (as in the case of a mailbox at the bottom
> of a driveway leading to only one building), sometimes it does not.
> Unless signed explicitly ("deliveries for 333 Bay Street"), parking
> and stopping locations might not be easily verifiable.
>
> Going back to the campsite-across-the-river problem:
>
> > The processing of finding a point on the routeable network is a spatial
> > "nearest". I know if no nav solution which does something more
> > sophisticated. I'd like to be proven wrong.
>
> I am not quite sure how we could actually resolve the problem of
> routers not taking spatial barriers into account other than by either
> mapping an address according to definition #3 (parking) rather than #6
> (emergency), or as a series of waypoints. We could have a node for
> "entrance leading to point XYZ" _on_ the routable network. But then
> how do you actually get to the destination front door, or the campsite
> reception, or your camping spot along these access=private roads or
> footways - switch router mode once past the entrance node? To fully
> describe a delivery you might need a node for "route here for
> deliveries to XYZ" on the public car routable network, then a ferry
> with motor_vehicle=private (or if we're lucky it's got delivery=yes),
> another roadway connecting to a "enter here for deliveries to XYZ",
> and connecting to that a private footway (and maybe some elevators)
> leading to the door. Are these waypoints verifiable?
>
>
> So, are the seven points above different kinds of addresses? How do we
> tag these all? Or are some of them not addresses? Or how do we choose
> which ones _not_ to tag? What other kinds of addresses have I missed?
>
> --Jarek
>
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