[Tagging] recreational vs functional routes

brad bradhaack at fastmail.com
Mon Jan 13 18:20:42 UTC 2020



On 1/12/20 4:23 PM, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> Paris is the capital of France because it has all the main government 
> facilities: the legislature, the executive, the judiciary and most 
> ministries.
>
> Routes that are mapped in Openstreetmap need to be signed or marked in 
> a visible way. Otherwise every Stava user will add their favorite 
> training loop to the map as a running route or road cycling route.
>
> Joseph
I think this is an overreaction.    There are many routes that meet the 
wiki description (and my own reasonableness test) that are not signed or 
marked.    I do see many routes in my area that should not be routes, 
but that is only a minor annoyance.


>
> On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 2:02 AM Florimond Berthoux 
> <florimond.berthoux at gmail.com <mailto:florimond.berthoux at gmail.com>> 
> wrote:
>
>     Asking me how do I know that Eurovelo 3 is for tourism or bicycle
>     trekking is like asking me how do I know that Paris is the capital
>     of France.
>     « Is there a sign saying that Paris is the capital of France? May
>     be we should remove that tag, don't you think?... »
>
>     You don't need sign post to have a route, do you have a sign post
>     at the intersection of those routes ?
>     https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=12/45.1485/-4.1705
>     I doubt that.
>
>     This is how the Wiki define a route:
>     « A *route* is a customary or regular line of passage or travel,
>     often predetermined and publicized. Routes consist of paths taken
>     repeatedly by people and vehicles: a ship on the North Atlantic
>     route, a car on a numbered road, a bus on its route or a cyclist
>     on a national route. »
>     https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:route
>
>     So to paraphrase this for road biking route :
>     « A road bicycle *route* is a customary or regular line of passage
>     or travel, often predetermined and publicized as such. Road
>     bicycle routes consist of paths taken repeatedly by road cyclist. »
>
>     And if you don't know then don't tag it and don't manage it.
>
>     Le sam. 11 janv. 2020 à 23:35, Joseph Eisenberg
>     <joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com <mailto:joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com>> a
>     écrit :
>     >
>     > >  I am not against distinguishing more types of cycling routes,
>     I am all for it, as long as it's verifyable, mappable with clear
>     tagging, and manageable.
>     >
>     > +1
>     >
>     > I started using Openstreetmap because I wanted to add touring routes
>     > and recreational bike routes in RideWithGPS and then found out that
>     > http://ridewithgps.com uses Openstreetmap data which I could
>     edit. And
>     > I get to work and take kids to school and shop by bike - I haven't
>     > owned a car for 9 years.
>     >
>     > So I would love to have more information about what streets and
>     roads
>     > are best for getting from point A to B, and which ones are nice for
>     > training rides and which ones are fun for tours.
>     >
>     > But tags have to be verifiable: if the next mapper can't confirm
>     that
>     > a tag as right, the data in Openstreetmap will not be maintained
>     > properly. Subjective tags cannot work.
>     >
>     > I have seen this happen: before I mapped here, I used to try to
>     > improve the bike routes in Portland Oregon for Google Maps. But
>     since
>     > there was no definition of a "preferred" bicycle street, and it was
>     > hard to delete a preferred route once it was added, the bike
>     layer was
>     > full of disconnected segments. Some were from old city maps of bike
>     > routes, some were based on the personal preference of the
>     mapper, and
>     > some were actually signed or marked on the ground, but you couldn't
>     > tell them apart.
>     >
>     > If there is a sign or marking that specifies that a certain route is
>     > designed for mountain bikes or for bike racing, then sure, you
>     can tag
>     > that. But most bike routes do not have anything to specify that they
>     > are more for commuting or more for recreation, and in that case we
>     > can't tag the distinction.
>     >
>     > Fortunately, database users (like routing applications) can look at
>     > other Openstreetmap data, like surface=* tags on ways, and external
>     > data like elevation models, to determine if a route is a difficult
>     > single-track trail through the hills versus a flat paved path
>     along a
>     > canal, and use this to help route cyclists appropriately.
>     >
>     > - Joseph Eisenberg
>
>     -- 
>     Florimond Berthoux
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>
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