[Tagging] recreational vs functional routes

[Volker Schmidt]

Bicycle or hiking routes in OSM that are not trailblazed have one big
drawback: they confuse data end users (they are looking for the signs, and
if there are none, think they have taken the wrong turn.

On Mon, 13 Jan 2020, 19:21 brad, <bradhaack at fastmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 1/12/20 4:23 PM, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>
> Paris is the capital of France because it has all the main government
> facilities: the legislature, the executive, the judiciary and most
> ministries.
>
> Routes that are mapped in Openstreetmap need to be signed or marked in a
> visible way. Otherwise every Stava user will add their favorite training
> loop to the map as a running route or road cycling route.
>
> Joseph
>
> I think this is an overreaction.    There are many routes that meet the
> wiki description (and my own reasonableness test) that are not signed or
> marked.    I do see many routes in my area that should not be routes, but
> that is only a minor annoyance.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 2:02 AM Florimond Berthoux <
> florimond.berthoux at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Asking me how do I know that Eurovelo 3 is for tourism or bicycle
>> trekking is like asking me how do I know that Paris is the capital of
>> France.
>> « Is there a sign saying that Paris is the capital of France? May be we
>> should remove that tag, don't you think?... »
>>
>> You don't need sign post to have a route, do you have a sign post at the
>> intersection of those routes ?
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=12/45.1485/-4.1705
>> I doubt that.
>>
>> This is how the Wiki define a route:
>> « A *route* is a customary or regular line of passage or travel, often
>> predetermined and publicized. Routes consist of paths taken repeatedly by
>> people and vehicles: a ship on the North Atlantic route, a car on a
>> numbered road, a bus on its route or a cyclist on a national route. »
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:route
>>
>> So to paraphrase this for road biking route :
>> « A road bicycle *route* is a customary or regular line of passage or
>> travel, often predetermined and publicized as such. Road bicycle routes
>> consist of paths taken repeatedly by road cyclist. »
>>
>> And if you don't know then don't tag it and don't manage it.
>>
>> Le sam. 11 janv. 2020 à 23:35, Joseph Eisenberg <
>> joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com> a écrit :
>> >
>> > >  I am not against distinguishing more types of cycling routes, I am
>> all for it, as long as it's verifyable, mappable with clear tagging, and
>> manageable.
>> >
>> > +1
>> >
>> > I started using Openstreetmap because I wanted to add touring routes
>> > and recreational bike routes in RideWithGPS and then found out that
>> > http://ridewithgps.com uses Openstreetmap data which I could edit. And
>> > I get to work and take kids to school and shop by bike - I haven't
>> > owned a car for 9 years.
>> >
>> > So I would love to have more information about what streets and roads
>> > are best for getting from point A to B, and which ones are nice for
>> > training rides and which ones are fun for tours.
>> >
>> > But tags have to be verifiable: if the next mapper can't confirm that
>> > a tag as right, the data in Openstreetmap will not be maintained
>> > properly. Subjective tags cannot work.
>> >
>> > I have seen this happen: before I mapped here, I used to try to
>> > improve the bike routes in Portland Oregon for Google Maps. But since
>> > there was no definition of a "preferred" bicycle street, and it was
>> > hard to delete a preferred route once it was added, the bike layer was
>> > full of disconnected segments. Some were from old city maps of bike
>> > routes, some were based on the personal preference of the mapper, and
>> > some were actually signed or marked on the ground, but you couldn't
>> > tell them apart.
>> >
>> > If there is a sign or marking that specifies that a certain route is
>> > designed for mountain bikes or for bike racing, then sure, you can tag
>> > that. But most bike routes do not have anything to specify that they
>> > are more for commuting or more for recreation, and in that case we
>> > can't tag the distinction.
>> >
>> > Fortunately, database users (like routing applications) can look at
>> > other Openstreetmap data, like surface=* tags on ways, and external
>> > data like elevation models, to determine if a route is a difficult
>> > single-track trail through the hills versus a flat paved path along a
>> > canal, and use this to help route cyclists appropriately.
>> >
>> > - Joseph Eisenberg
>>
>> --
>> Florimond Berthoux
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