[Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

bkil bkil.hu+Aq at gmail.com
Mon Jun 29 12:03:02 UTC 2020

> That's what cuisine=* is for.  That's what Google is for.  That's what Yellow Pages is for.  That's what TripAdvisor is for.

Yes, I've been wondering why we keep adding streets and POI to OSM, I
thought that's what Google Maps is for.

Now seriously, OSM has a great advantage of not favoring only
motorists and that the schema (and its POI set!) can be extended based
on demand - by the people, for the people. This clearly sets the two
aside and it has been one of the top arguments I use when I call for
supporting OSM (but see also: tracking, offline usability, ...).

Why keep data together in a database if you could get the same
information from randomly scattered sources? Clearly a database
carries value - it is protected by EU database rights as well (they
are probably protected in the UK as well _somehow_).

Surely I'm not saying that we should pour everything into OSM. That's
why we have outside links to Wikipedia and Wikidata. But the most
basic information must be present for each POI (=point of public
interest): it's position (making OSM a geo-database) and something
that carries an identification, like it's name, contact:website with
more information and the type of POI, possibly for the benefit of
foreigners or if it can't be inferred from the name, or if multiple
things with the same name can be found at roughly the same position.

If we already add a type, why can't we make it right? Why not use such
a taxonomy that makes sense, enabling interpretation for both locals
and internationally? It's not like I advocate adding dozens of useless
extra tags - I'm advocating replacing an ill-defined or ill-fitting
word with another word that fits the type better. This doesn't carry
that much of a database overhead. Now compare this to if we always had
to list the full menu of a place so searching could be made operable.
This would also be a nightmare from the perspective of keeping the
data up to date as discussed in some previous threads.

It is considered best practice to tag the type of POI in such a way
that people (and machines) are allowed to understand the basic essence
(primary purpose) of a given place just by looking at the semantic
tags (so minus the name and strapline).

I'm still not sure how we should tag a cukrászda around the world and
I haven't made a concrete suggestion for this yet, but I'm positive
that users are looking for this and deserve the right to be able to
search for it _somehow_. Mappers deserve the right to be able to tag
what they see on the ground. People wasting time searching for
workarounds to tag a curkászda means that they care enough. Why should
users again waste more time when they are trying to use the data that
mappers have scrambled on purpose?

>From a perspective of local knowledge, I had to point out the
workaround of using amenity=cafe + cuisine=* for many years now to
well experienced OSM editors with thousands of edits around the world,
because they wouldn't have otherwise thought of this (but then they
also disagreed with this concept). How would I then expect a novice
mapper or a navigation user to have figured this out then? This also
shows that in the minds of people familiar with the concept, a bakery,
a café, a cukrászda and a sweets shop are all very different things.
Hence after all these years, I came to admit that I was wrong and this
workaround doesn't work, so I stopped recommending it. Sometimes we
have to admit that we were wrong and move on to the right direction -
this is what agility is about.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 9:05 PM Paul Allen <pla16021 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 18:51, Gábor Fekete <fekgabimr at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Me too.  A cukrászda is definitely not a cafe in my opinion. A cukrászda surely offers a wide variety of self-made sweets, probably coffee too. A cafe, tagged with cuisine=cake, probably has a limited selection of cakes (from unknown source).
> So one offers home-made cakes and the other may offer home-made cakes
> (the few cake-only cafes I'm aware of around here offer home-made
> cakes) or may not.  I'm not sure that merits a different value of main
> tag.  They both sell cakes.
>> And what about the tourist, who makes a 30-minute side trip to go to a coffee shop to eat some sweets, and finds only two kinds of marlenka in a paper box?
> That's what cuisine=* is for.  That's what Google is for.  That's what Yellow Pages
> is for.  That's what TripAdvisor is for.
>> I share the opinion that some cukrászdas are not shops, they should be tagged as amenity (but not amenity=cafe).
> From where I'm sitting, they quack like cafes.  Cafes with very limited choices of
> cuisine, but still cafes.  Some of them are cafes selling home-made products,
> but they still quack like cafes.  They are cafes I would avoid (diet-controlled
> diabetes) just as I would avoid vegetarian cafes (I don't like their menus) so
> I would be delighted to find those things specified by cuisine=* so I could
> avoid them.  I still don't see them as being not-cafes.
> I like Indian food, so I think it would be great if Indian restaurants had
> special tagging and icons to let me find them more easily.  But they're
> just restaurants with a special type of cuisine.  So if I'm in a strange
> town and feeling hungry I can look for restaurants on the map and check
> their cuisines.
> You've not convinced me that these things are anything other than cafes with
> a special cuisine.  They're not even unique to your part of the world, we have
> them here: cafes that serve home-made cakes, some beverages and nothing
> else.
> You've not convinced me that this is a square peg/round hole situation.  It
> seems more like a square peg/square hole situation.  Is there anything sold
> in cukrászdas that isn't sold in cafes/pastry shops?  Is there anything sold
> in cafes that only sell pastries/pastry shops that isn't sold in cukrászdas?
> --
> Paul
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