[Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

bkil bkil.hu+Aq at gmail.com
Mon Jun 29 18:57:24 UTC 2020

Yes, "we" refers to the Hungarian mapping community who we discussed this
topic with a few times in the past, although we're still waiting for
others from the neighboring area to also chime in.

We'd be more than happy if we could have input from as many cultures
as possible.

In Hungary, coffeehouses (and cafés) generally do not make _any_ of
their desserts, while a cukrászda makes _almost_ all of them (if not all).
Hot meals are also not expected in a cukrászda, while some fraction of
cafes around here do offer a time limited daily lunch:menu=* (they
usually order such meals from external kitchens), though as mentioned
it would be plausible for a bigger coffeehouse to have a kitchen where
they could cook something simple like an omelette.
However, I would be surprised if coffeehouses were common in the UK which
do not serve any coffee.

The mapnik icon of a café is a coffee cup. The primary motivation of
us wanting to go to a café is to have some coffee, tea, a soft drink
and perhaps something to go with that.

The icon of a cukrászda could be some kind of dessert (unfortunately
the piece of cake is taken by shop=pastry). The primary motivation of
going to a cukrászda is to have some nice desserts, and perhaps some
liquid to go with that - so that's just the corollary.

The use case is clearly different, and the two can rarely be
substituted for one another. For example, if you plan to go out on a
date in a cukrászda, but it suddenly closes the day before, you won't
reschedule the event to a café - you will reschedule to another
cukrászda. If you planned a date to a Korean restaurant and you have
to reschedule it similarly, the Mongolian restaurant would be a
fulfilling substitute for most people.

As highlighted in our notes, people usually don't go to a cukrászda
because they are hungry - they usually have something to eat at a
restaurant or at home beforehand.

Placing custom orders is only an option - a defining feature of a
cukrászda is that they keep a buffer of some of the most popular
desserts inside a chilled see-through counter that you can choose
from based on visuals (also a unique feature - this is rare in a café).

Of course some of the desserts can only be prepared afresh, so one
can sit down with some salty appetizers until it is ready. In Hungary,
we don't quite have other kinds of "pastry shops" as an alternative, so
it's really not a "30-minute side trip".

craft=patisserie doesn't seem to be an established tag. Also this is
not something like a beekeeper where we can ring the doorbell anytime
to get some honey. Due to health regulations, a "cukrász" (~something
like pastry cook) is not allowed to make desserts at home - she must
operate a kitchen for this purpose. Then for the same reason, no
customers or guests are allowed in the kitchen, there must be a place
where they can be served (at a cukrászda in person or perhaps by delivery).

We did consider possibilities for mapping the kitchen as well (maybe
with the tag similar to what you suggest, or the more established and
related craft=confectionery), but I personally don't find that of
priority for the average map user, we'll see later on.

This itself is a major difference compared to a bakery, because baking
simple flour based breads and simple baker's confections doesn't
command the same number of permits or expertise (and they usually
don't need a chilled counter either).

It is understandable that there will always be corner cases and that
mapping is not 100% science, but this doesn't mean we couldn't even
try to get things right. People may or may not be looking for cafes
that much, because they are pretty common, but a cukrászda is a much
more rare and valuable POI compared to that.

Indeed most single cukrászda does not feature every kind of dessert that
I've listed, but they usually feature many items from multiple categories,
(usually many times the number of possibilities compared to a café
that purchases only the most popular few kinds of desserts from a
cukrászda for offer) and if we only listed the most representative
upper level categories individually, it would still leave lots of
room for mapper error.

Overall, adding cuisine=* (5-10 items listed, some non-pastry) +
shop=pastry + artisan=yes may be a kludgy workaround for a
cukrászat/cukrászda where you can't sit in, but this reasoning would
make shop=confectionery redundant as well. But we still need a
solution for the sit-in kind which is clearly an amenity.

So we'll be thinking about some mapping options and will also discuss
it later on.

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