[Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

bkil bkil.hu+Aq at gmail.com
Tue Jun 30 11:55:25 UTC 2020

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 12:11 PM Martin Koppenhoefer
<dieterdreist at gmail.com> wrote:
> it is you who knows the cukrászda best. You must decide (together with your fellow local mappers who also know the feature), whether it is a subtype of one of the established tags, or whether it is so different that it must get a new tag. People from England or Italy can not help significantly you to make this decision, because we do not know the feature well. We can only help you by asking questions and trying to explain what the implications and meaning of the established tags are (and only if we can concur on a common meaning ;-) which is not a given, as shown by this discussion). You will also almost everytime find someone who does not agree, and while I have read a lot of things from Paul that made sense in other contexts, in this particular discussion it appeared to me that he was sometimes giving interpretations of established tags that didn't find other supporting voices.

Indeed your input is highly valuable. In parallel to this thread, your
answers have sparked a constructive 6th/7th wave of discussions in
Hungarian on matrix.

It's not that we disagree within the community, it's that we honestly
don't know the _right_ answer. We're trying to dig deeply into the
linguistic, historical and cultural aspects as well to better
understand the constraints.

It's a major blocker that the most important key words do not have
proper translation between English and Hungarian, or their approximate
translations misleadingly map to different concepts or subsets of
substantances (sütemény, péksütemény, cukrászsütemény, édesség,
cukrász, torta, desszert, ...).

We're trying to avoid this by trying to come up with new compound
words and/or generalizing by categories.

> I think this is what we all are striving for here, the problem is that it is not obvious. It is clear we ideally want to be able to exactly understand from the tags what kind of object it is, but if have too many different types on the top level, it will make it difficult to use the data (you must know all these tags and look for them in order to show them to your users), while if we have too few top level tags, people must also look for all the subtags in order not to get a wrong impression. We are looking for a "middle way", and what makes sense in this regard is seen differently by different people. That's why we are discussing here.

So we're just now working with another member of our community in
attempting to come up with a schema where we could "micromap" the type
of desserts served by category. This direction may allow for using
more general top level amenity and shop tags, although I personally
don't see an existing one that would be an _optimal_ choice. If not
done right, its maintenance burden may also be higher than
anticipated. In general, a new top level tag is sometimes understood
to be a shorthand for a bunch of other subtags (existing or virtual
ones), so we'll see what kind of redundancy this would introduce.

We're still doodling about this, but will keep you posted.

>> From a perspective of local knowledge, I had to point out the
>> workaround of using amenity=cafe + cuisine=* for many years now to
>> well experienced OSM editors with thousands of edits around the world,
>> because they wouldn't have otherwise thought of this (but then they
>> also disagreed with this concept). How would I then expect a novice
>> mapper or a navigation user to have figured this out then?
> by documenting it in the wiki, also in your language

So basically my argument here was that it is good practice to document
tags and useful combinations (I also do that as a hobby), we should in
general prefer not to use tag wordings that aren't "obvious" given
basic knowledge of English. Hence, I agree that we should keep it
simple and to give at least a fair chance for international users to
understand a POI without local knowledge.

> (and potentially convincing the makers of tagging presets to cater for it).

At some point in time, a well intentioned translator caused great
confusion by mixing shop=confectionery and shop=pastry, but we fixed
it promptly. I agree that after we agreed on a schema that could work
across borders, it would be a great benefit to the mapping community
to make presets for it.

> (I have seen there are quite some hits in the wiki already for this word).

Yes, as mentioned, we're having this FAQ all the time, and hence at
least we started to document the dirty workarounds that we'd been
using up to now to be consistent locally, but this consistency breaks
down around the world (and with the sit-in kind of cukrászda).

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