[Tagging] camp_pitch : an area inside a site : also in a park ?

Kevin Kenny kevin.b.kenny at gmail.com
Tue Mar 10 00:38:43 UTC 2020

New York's largest parks are enormous - the Adirondack Park is about
the same land area as Massachusetts or Belgium, and the Catskill Park
is about of a size with Yosemite National Park. Between the magnitude
and the function, I've had no compunction about tagging both of them
`boundary=national_park`, particularly since (as is also done in the
UK) there is human habitation within them, still regulated by the park
authorities. I discuss the reasoning behind this decision at
considerably more length in the diary entry at

Both of these large reserves have multiple state campgrounds within
them, and these are `tourism=camp_site`, leaving the possibility of
tagging the individual pitches if desired (I've not tried). They also
contain ski areas and day use areas (the latter are
`recreation_ground`), Wilderness Areas and Wild Forests
(`boundary=protected_area protect_class=1b`) and various other
facilities.  A worked example is that the Fish Creek Pond Campground
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6378239) is surrounded by but
cut out from the Saranac Lakes Wild Forest
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6362702), which is a diffuse
area of state land (with waterways and private inholdings cut out)
that is in turn within the Adirondack Park
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1695394). It has designated
and numbered pitches within it which have been too numerous for me to
map: https://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/permits_ej_operations_pdf/fishcreekmap2019.pdf.

New York's State Parks (the two big ones aren't State Parks, they're a
different beast entirely) are also tagged as protected areas. They are
also a mix of conservation and recreation, In most of the larger ones,
the former use predominates, so I also tag them as
`leisure=nature_reserve` and exercise judgment (which may be
inconsistent) about `protect_class`.  In those cases, I overlay the
other land uses - recreation_ground, camp_site, winter_sports, etc.,
and the data consumers don't appear to be all that unhappy with the
result. For the largest of the State Parks (Allegany, Bear
Mountain-Harriman-Sterling Forest, Minnewaska, Letchworth, Fahnestock,
Hudson Highlands, Taconic, maybe Moreau Lake), I'd not be too
uncomfortable with `boundary=national_park`, which would also deal
with the fact that these parks contain multiple campgrounds wihtout
bending the tagging rules by putting landuse within landuse.

Some of the State Parks are actually historic sites, swimming beaches,
marinas, stand-alone recreation grounds, golf courses or even parks in
the European/OSM sense (landscaped areas principally for passive
leisure and visual enjoyment). These are tagged according to their

Many of New York's State Parks were initially entered by mappers other
than me, I haven't always messed with their tagging, so there's still
some inappropriate 'leisure=park' floating around.

New York also has State Forests (`boundary=protected_area
protect_class=6` since they are managed in part for timber harvest). I
don't think any have managed campgrounds within their borders, but
some do restrict backcountry camping to designated pitches, which
could be mapped.

Tagging of State Parks has been hotly debated, to say the least.  My
lengthy discussion, trying to find common ground, can be found at
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/ke9tv/diary/390260.  The underlying
problem with tagging appears to be that the word 'park' doesn't mean
the same thing in the US that it does in the UK, and the language of
OpenStreetMap tagging is UK English. Unfortunately, the UK really
doesn't have anything that's parallel in structure and function to a
'state park' in the US, so there is no appropriate term for us to use!
 It tends to be that the purists see the multiple functions that a
typical State Park serves, and say, "you can't map the whole thing,
only map the individual facilities." Understandably, the US mappers
rebel against that dictum: the "whole thing" is what is signed, and
what appears on paper maps sold in the US, and what's commonly spoken
of: "We're going to Bear Mountain State Park for the afternoon, want
to come along?" ("State Park" is often omitted in speaking; to locals,
'Bear Mountain' more likely means the State Park than the eponymous
mountain within it. It's quite ordinary to go to "Moreau Lake" and
never come withiin sight of the lake, much less swim or put a boat in
the water, or to "Bear Mountain" without climbing it.)

On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 7:25 PM Marc M. <marc_marc_irc at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
> When fixing depreciated tag camp_site=camp_pitch,
> I've found several of these in huge parks in the United States.
> the current and approved definition of tourism=camp_pitch says that
> sites are tourism=camp_site or tourism=caravan_site
> however these parks often have identical characteristics to these
> tourism=*_site : they sometimes have a common reception desk for
> different camp_pitch, toilets, a drinking water point, ...
> what do you think is the best schema :
> - Change the definition of tourism=camp_pitch to include these large
> parks as a valid _site.
> - add tourism=camp_site on the whole park ? with the default of having 2
> main tags on the same object
> - other ideas ?
> one among others https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Rsg
> Regards,
> Marc
> _______________________________________________
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> Tagging at openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

73 de ke9tv/2, Kevin

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