[Tagging] Please fix unnamed square tagging / was: ... description of place=square

Joseph Eisenberg joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com
Mon Mar 23 05:25:06 UTC 2020

> the keywords from the preset translation

Yes, thank you. (Sorry, I use a satellite internet connection, so iD
doesn't work too well for me):

"Praça ou largo: Praça, praceta ou largo: espaço numa zona urbana,
normalmente sem edifícios (apenas a volta desta), que constitui um
espaço público aberto"

This translates back to English as (approximately):
"Praça, praceta or largo: space in an urban area, usually without
buildings (except for around it), which constitutes a public open

This definition is taken from the Data Item
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q6077 - where it is by far
the most complete definition.

Most of the others are just "A named square" translated into the local language:

Una plaza con nombre.
Une place nommée.
Pojmenované náměstí
Ein öffentlicher Platz

I'll update this to the new definition from the English page.

I've also created an Indonesian page, which gives a couple examples of
"alun-alun" in Indonesia which fit the definition:

1) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/Alun-alun_Garut.jpg/400px-Alun-alun_Garut.jpg

2) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Alun_-_Alun_Bandung_Masjid_Raya_Bandung.jpg/400px-Alun_-_Alun_Bandung_Masjid_Raya_Bandung.jpg

But there are many other alun-alun that are grassy urban parks, not squares:

A) http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zpwpVxKz0q0/UXoUmFzUAXI/AAAAAAAABpI/brIHP9_dQQY/s400/images.jpg

B) https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Alun-alun_Tugu_-_Bunder_-_panoramio.jpg

C) https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Square_Trenggalek_-_Alun-Alun_Trenggalek_-_panoramio_(10).jpg

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On 3/23/20, António Madeira <antoniomadeira at gmx.com> wrote:
> When you say description, are you referring to the definition from the
> wiki, or the keywords from the preset translation?
> This?
> https://i.imgur.com/Id8xOaJ.png
> Or this?
> https://i.imgur.com/tXXb0Yr.png
> Às 22:25 de 22/03/2020, Joseph Eisenberg escreveu:
>> So in iD does it just show "uma praça" as the description for
>> place=square?
>> -- Joseph Eisenberg
>> On 3/23/20, António Madeira <antoniomadeira at gmx.com> wrote:
>>> In Portuguese it's "Praça", similar to Piazza, which comes from the
>>> Latin "platea".
>>> Depending on its size and location, it can be named officially as
>>> "Praça", "Largo"or "Praceta".
>>> The English description of place=square in iD is empty.
>>> https://i.imgur.com/AIqEuuC.png
>>> Às 21:41 de 22/03/2020, Joseph Eisenberg escreveu:
>>>> Curious: what is the translation used in Portuguese?
>>>> Do you also know the English description of place=square used in iD?
>>>> On 3/23/20, António Madeira <antoniomadeira at gmx.com> wrote:
>>>>> I agree that the place=square needs some kind of polishing, specially
>>>>> regarding name tag, which should be mandatory.
>>>>> In Portugal, the definition of square can have three meanings,
>>>>> depending
>>>>> on its size and region, but it's easy to map them because they all
>>>>> have
>>>>> name.
>>>>> The problem with iD can be its translation/localization. The
>>>>> Portuguese
>>>>> community had to discuss what was the best translation so that newbies
>>>>> could get it right more often via iD.
>>>>> Maybe this must be done also in Germany.
>>>>> Às 10:46 de 22/03/2020, Tom Pfeifer escreveu:
>>>>>> Yes there is inconsistent use of place=square, in particular for
>>>>>> _unnamed_ objects.
>>>>>> As the place=* key is used to indicate that a particular location is
>>>>>> known by a particular name,
>>>>>> a place=* tag without a name is fundamentally wrong.
>>>>>> (As the world is not black and white, there might be exceptions.)
>>>>>> In Germany alone I found >600 such taggings, and all I probed were:
>>>>>> 1. not squares as in the definition, but small and insignificant
>>>>>> paved
>>>>>> surfaces, like a round piece of footway in a park, the service yard
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> a fire station, or similar.
>>>>>> 2. they were all added by the iD editor, typically since 2018.
>>>>>> Thus my assumption is that place=square is suggested in an iD preset
>>>>>> to unsuitable features.
>>>>>> Could somebody with sufficient iD insight check what that preset
>>>>>> suggests, and why it does not ask for names?
>>>>>> Further I recommend that everybody checks their area for place=square
>>>>>> _without a name_, evaluate what it is and adjust the tagging. This
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> not (!) be done mechanically, besides the issues with mechanical
>>>>>> edits, because the correct tagging will differ (e.g. highway=service
>>>>>> +
>>>>>> area=yes; or highway=footway + area=yes), or the tag was correct
>>>>>> indeed and the name has been forgotten.
>>>>>> Query for unnamed square in a bounding box:
>>>>>> https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/ROw
>>>>>> I also suggest to update wiki descriptions of place=* tags, upgrading
>>>>>> the "name=*" from "useful combination" to "required", and add that to
>>>>>> validators.
>>>>>> tom
>>>>>> On 21.03.2020 01:32, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>>>>>>> A few of us have been updating the Tag:place=square page, and
>>>>>>> Square:
>>>>>>> Unfortunately, this tag has been used rather inconsistently around
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> world, often for any feature that includes the word "square" or a
>>>>>>> translation of that word, or which might be considered similar in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> local language.
>>>>>>> Some poorly mapped examples are shown on github:
>>>>>>> *https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/4043#issuecomment-593045858
>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/4043#issuecomment-593046473
>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/4043#issuecomment-593046673
>>>>>>> Check if any of the place=square features in your area should
>>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>> be junction=yes (for a named street intersection or road junction)
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> leisure=park or place=neighborhood.
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