[Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?
pangoSE
pangose at riseup.net
Fri Mar 27 11:45:40 UTC 2020
Does it matter what I as a swede think?
If the tourists/officials visiting speaking Swiss High German(among each
other) choose to call this city that its fine by me. If the city ever
translate their homepage to de-ch I suppose they would call it the same.
Names are (in my view) socially constructed and constantly agreed upon
by the users of the language. I don't speak Swiss High German so I'm not
really in a position to judge what to call this city in that language.
IMO OSM is not a suitable place for speakers of Swiss High Germanto
argue what to call the city for reasons laid out here
http://blog.imagico.de/verifiability-and-the-wikipediarization-of-openstreetmap/.
This is very different from a street name that appears on a sign IMO,
which is verifiable and can be seen by anyone in the same spot.
pangoSE
On 2020-03-27 10:47, Simon Poole wrote:
>
> Just using the entry for your place, do you really think that an entry
> like say
>
> Swiss High GermanHärnösand
>
> makes sense? (Swiss High German is de-CH).
>
> Simon
>
> Am 27.03.2020 um 10:07 schrieb pangose at riseup.net:
>> Hi Simon.
>>
>> Do you have a link? The Municipality I live in has sensible names in
>> WD https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3240427
>>
>> Does it matter to us in OSM if it "has the name"? I'm thinking that
>> we outsource all the naming to WD to deal with and fight over.
>> In OSM we could instead concentrate on e.g. what language codes to
>> display on osm.org e.g. name_osm=sv for a city with dominant Swedish
>> population and name_osm=se for a town/city where most are Sami.
>> In the case of double naming on the ground we could have something
>> like: name_osm= code1 / code2
>> Where code1 is the e.g. the Welsh and code2 is the English name.
>>
>> The idea in these cases is the we get rid of all other name tags that
>> can be stored and curated better in WD.
>>
>> On March 25, 2020 10:48:45 PM GMT+01:00, Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Note that lots of the wikidata names are nonsense and are simply
>> derived from the wikipedia page name (which a wp page has to
>> have, but it doesn't imply that the object actually has a name in
>> the language of the wikipedia you are looking at). For example
>> the municipality I live in has a German and a Swiss-German name,
>> it -doesn't- have names in any of the other 31 languages that are
>> listed.
>>
>> Simon
>>
>> Am 25.03.2020 um 11:00 schrieb pangose at riseup.net:
>>> Honestly I don't think it makes sense for OSM to have names at
>>> all on objects which has a Wikidata reference. We are just too
>>> small a community to keep this updated and it has little value
>>> to duplicate to the efforts made by others.
>>> If any names I suggest we have a bot autoupdating all name tags
>>> according to the values in Wikidata. If there is no Wikidata
>>> item it should be found/created.
>>> It really is'nt hard to populate a map with geographical data
>>> from OSM and query the names the user wants to see from WD.
>>> This offloads a huge burden as I see it.
>>> All our tools that currently invites our users to include a name
>>> could be adapted so that the user is aware that OSM is about
>>> geodata and names are for WD and best stored/updated there.
>>> If we allow a name to be set only when no qid we avoid the bulk
>>> of these problems.
>>> When a qid is set a bot could remove all names for languages
>>> already present in WD.
>>>
>>> On March 25, 2020 10:45:03 AM GMT+01:00, Andrew Hain
>>> <andrewhainosm at hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> Why on earth would we not (excluding exceptional copyright
>>> issues) want to have lots of different name:XX tags?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *From:* Frederik Ramm <frederik at remote.org>
>>> *Sent:* 25 March 2020 09:26
>>> *To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
>>> <tagging at openstreetmap.org>
>>> *Subject:* [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for
>>> name:xx tags?
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> the "name:xx" tags are something of an exception in OSM
>>> because while we
>>> defer to "local knowledge" as the highest-ranking source
>>> normally, this
>>> is not being done for name:xx tags. It is possible for no
>>> single citizen
>>> of the city of Karlsruhe to know its Russian name, but still
>>> a Russian
>>> name could exist. Who is the highest-ranking source for that?
>>>
>>> My guess is that about 5% of name:xx tags in OSM actually
>>> represent a
>>> unique name in its own right; all others are either copies
>>> of the name
>>> tag ("this city does not have its own name in language XX
>>> but I want
>>> every city to have a name:xx tag so I'll just copy the name
>>> tag"), or
>>> transliterations (or, worst case, even literal translations).
>>>
>>> A while ago we had a longer discussion about Esperanto
>>> names; in that
>>> discussion, it was questioned whether Esperanto could be in
>>> the name tag
>>> but nobody disputed that adding name:eo tags is ok, even though
>>> Esperanto is an invented (or "constructed") language.
>>>
>>> Yesterday someone added a few dozen Klingon names to
>>> countries in OSM. I
>>> have reverted that because of a copyright issue, but I think
>>> we also
>>> need to discuss which languages we want to accept for
>>> name:xx tags.
>>>
>>> In my opinion, a name:xx tag should only be added if you can
>>> demonstrate
>>> that people natively speaking the living language xx are
>>> actually using
>>> this name for this entity. I think we have a very unhealthy
>>> inflation of
>>> names in OSM that are added by "single-purpose mappers" -
>>> they come in,
>>> stick a name:my-favourite-language tag onto everything, and
>>> go away
>>> again. Nobody knows if these names are even correct, and
>>> nobody cares
>>> for their maintenance. The country North Macedonia changed
>>> its name
>>> almost one year ago, yet roughly half of its ~ 170 name tags
>>> are still
>>> what they were before this change. Nobody cares; these names
>>> suggest a
>>> data richness that is not backed up by an actual living
>>> community that
>>> cares for them.
>>>
>>> What are your opinions on which languages should be accepted
>>> in name
>>> tags? What do you think about
>>>
>>> * niche constructed languages (say, FredLang which has 2 words I
>>> invented just now)
>>> * popular constructed languages (Klingon, Elvish) - note
>>> place names in
>>> these languages will often be algorithmically derived from
>>> the English
>>> or local name
>>> * "serious" constructed languages (Esperanto)
>>> * languages that once existed but are not natively spoken
>>> any more (Roman)
>>> * languages that are natively spoken but their speakers do
>>> not have
>>> their own name for the entity in question (instead they use
>>> the same
>>> name the locals use, possibly transcribed into a different
>>> alphabet)
>>> * ...
>>>
>>> Or if you don't have the time to think about this in detail,
>>> just answer
>>> the question: tlhIngan Hol - Hlja' or ghobe'?
>>>
>>> Bye
>>> Frederik
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> Tagging at openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
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