[Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

pangoSE pangose at riseup.net
Fri Mar 27 11:45:40 UTC 2020


Does it matter what I as a swede think?

If the tourists/officials visiting speaking Swiss High German(among each 
other) choose to call this city that its fine by me. If the city ever 
translate their homepage to de-ch I suppose they would call it the same.

Names are (in my view) socially constructed and constantly agreed upon 
by the users of the language. I don't speak Swiss High German so I'm not 
really in a position to judge what to call this city in that language. 
IMO OSM is not a suitable place for speakers of Swiss High Germanto 
argue what to call the city for reasons laid out here 
http://blog.imagico.de/verifiability-and-the-wikipediarization-of-openstreetmap/. 


This is very different from a street name that appears on a sign IMO, 
which is verifiable and can be seen by anyone in the same spot.

pangoSE

On 2020-03-27 10:47, Simon Poole wrote:
>
> Just using the entry for your place, do you really think that an entry 
> like say
>
> Swiss High GermanHärnösand
>
> makes sense? (Swiss High German is de-CH).
>
> Simon
>
> Am 27.03.2020 um 10:07 schrieb pangose at riseup.net:
>> Hi Simon.
>>
>> Do you have a link? The Municipality I live in has sensible names in 
>> WD https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3240427
>>
>> Does it matter to us in OSM if it "has the name"? I'm thinking that 
>> we outsource all the naming to WD to deal with and fight over.
>> In OSM we could instead concentrate on e.g. what language codes to 
>> display on osm.org e.g. name_osm=sv for a city with dominant Swedish 
>> population and name_osm=se for a town/city where most are Sami.
>> In the case of double naming on the ground we could have something 
>> like: name_osm= code1 / code2
>> Where code1 is the e.g. the Welsh and code2 is the English name.
>>
>> The idea in these cases is the we get rid of all other name tags that 
>> can be stored and curated better in WD.
>>
>> On March 25, 2020 10:48:45 PM GMT+01:00, Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>     Note that lots of the wikidata names are nonsense and are simply
>>     derived from the wikipedia page name (which a wp page has to
>>     have, but it doesn't imply that the object actually has a name in
>>     the language of the wikipedia you are looking at). For example
>>     the municipality I live in has a German and a Swiss-German name,
>>     it -doesn't- have names in any of the other 31 languages that are
>>     listed.
>>
>>     Simon
>>
>>     Am 25.03.2020 um 11:00 schrieb pangose at riseup.net:
>>>     Honestly I don't think it makes sense for OSM to have names at
>>>     all on objects which has a Wikidata reference. We are just too
>>>     small a community to keep this updated and it has little value
>>>     to duplicate to the efforts made by others.
>>>     If any names I suggest we have a bot autoupdating all name tags
>>>     according to the values in Wikidata. If there is no Wikidata
>>>     item it should be found/created.
>>>     It really is'nt hard to populate a map with geographical data
>>>     from OSM and query the names the user wants to see from WD.
>>>     This offloads a huge burden as I see it.
>>>     All our tools that currently invites our users to include a name
>>>     could be adapted so that the user is aware that OSM is about
>>>     geodata and names are for WD and best stored/updated there.
>>>     If we allow a name to be set only when no qid we avoid the bulk
>>>     of these problems.
>>>     When a qid is set a bot could remove all names for languages
>>>     already present in WD.
>>>
>>>     On March 25, 2020 10:45:03 AM GMT+01:00, Andrew Hain
>>>     <andrewhainosm at hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>         Why on earth would we not (excluding exceptional copyright
>>>         issues) want to have lots of different name:XX tags?
>>>
>>>         --
>>>         Andrew
>>>
>>>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>         *From:* Frederik Ramm <frederik at remote.org>
>>>         *Sent:* 25 March 2020 09:26
>>>         *To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
>>>         <tagging at openstreetmap.org>
>>>         *Subject:* [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for
>>>         name:xx tags?
>>>         Hi,
>>>
>>>         the "name:xx" tags are something of an exception in OSM
>>>         because while we
>>>         defer to "local knowledge" as the highest-ranking source
>>>         normally, this
>>>         is not being done for name:xx tags. It is possible for no
>>>         single citizen
>>>         of the city of Karlsruhe to know its Russian name, but still
>>>         a Russian
>>>         name could exist. Who is the highest-ranking source for that?
>>>
>>>         My guess is that about 5% of name:xx tags in OSM actually
>>>         represent a
>>>         unique name in its own right; all others are either copies
>>>         of the name
>>>         tag ("this city does not have its own name in language XX
>>>         but I want
>>>         every city to have a name:xx tag so I'll just copy the name
>>>         tag"), or
>>>         transliterations (or, worst case, even literal translations).
>>>
>>>         A while ago we had a longer discussion about Esperanto
>>>         names; in that
>>>         discussion, it was questioned whether Esperanto could be in
>>>         the name tag
>>>         but nobody disputed that adding name:eo tags is ok, even though
>>>         Esperanto is an invented (or "constructed") language.
>>>
>>>         Yesterday someone added a few dozen Klingon names to
>>>         countries in OSM. I
>>>         have reverted that because of a copyright issue, but I think
>>>         we also
>>>         need to discuss which languages we want to accept for
>>>         name:xx tags.
>>>
>>>         In my opinion, a name:xx tag should only be added if you can
>>>         demonstrate
>>>         that people natively speaking the living language xx are
>>>         actually using
>>>         this name for this entity. I think we have a very unhealthy
>>>         inflation of
>>>         names in OSM that are added by "single-purpose mappers" -
>>>         they come in,
>>>         stick a name:my-favourite-language tag onto everything, and
>>>         go away
>>>         again. Nobody knows if these names are even correct, and
>>>         nobody cares
>>>         for their maintenance. The country North Macedonia changed
>>>         its name
>>>         almost one year ago, yet roughly half of its ~ 170 name tags
>>>         are still
>>>         what they were before this change. Nobody cares; these names
>>>         suggest a
>>>         data richness that is not backed up by an actual living
>>>         community that
>>>         cares for them.
>>>
>>>         What are your opinions on which languages should be accepted
>>>         in name
>>>         tags? What do you think about
>>>
>>>         * niche constructed languages (say, FredLang which has 2 words I
>>>         invented just now)
>>>         * popular constructed languages (Klingon, Elvish) - note
>>>         place names in
>>>         these languages will often be algorithmically derived from
>>>         the English
>>>         or local name
>>>         * "serious" constructed languages (Esperanto)
>>>         * languages that once existed but are not natively spoken
>>>         any more (Roman)
>>>         * languages that are natively spoken but their speakers do
>>>         not have
>>>         their own name for the entity in question (instead they use
>>>         the same
>>>         name the locals use, possibly transcribed into a different
>>>         alphabet)
>>>         * ...
>>>
>>>         Or if you don't have the time to think about this in detail,
>>>         just answer
>>>         the question: tlhIngan Hol - Hlja' or ghobe'?
>>>
>>>         Bye
>>>         Frederik
>>>
>>>
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     Tagging mailing list
>>>     Tagging at openstreetmap.org
>>>     https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
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