[Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

Simon Poole simon at poole.ch
Fri Mar 27 09:47:23 UTC 2020

Just using the entry for your place, do you really think that an entry
like say

Swiss High GermanHärnösand

makes sense? (Swiss High German is de-CH).


Am 27.03.2020 um 10:07 schrieb pangose at riseup.net:
> Hi Simon.
> Do you have a link? The Municipality I live in has sensible names in
> WD https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3240427
> Does it matter to us in OSM if it "has the name"? I'm thinking that we
> outsource all the naming to WD to deal with and fight over.
> In OSM we could instead concentrate on e.g. what language codes to
> display on osm.org e.g. name_osm=sv for a city with dominant Swedish
> population and name_osm=se for a town/city where most are Sami.
> In the case of double naming on the ground we could have something
> like: name_osm= code1 / code2
> Where code1 is the e.g. the Welsh and code2 is the English name.
> The idea in these cases is the we get rid of all other name tags that
> can be stored and curated better in WD.
> On March 25, 2020 10:48:45 PM GMT+01:00, Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch>
> wrote:
>     Note that lots of the wikidata names are nonsense and are simply
>     derived from the wikipedia page name (which a wp page has to have,
>     but it doesn't imply that the object actually has a name in the
>     language of the wikipedia you are looking at). For example the
>     municipality I live in has a German and a Swiss-German name, it
>     -doesn't- have names in any of the other 31 languages that are listed.
>     Simon
>     Am 25.03.2020 um 11:00 schrieb pangose at riseup.net:
>>     Honestly I don't think it makes sense for OSM to have names at
>>     all on objects which has a Wikidata reference. We are just too
>>     small a community to keep this updated and it has little value to
>>     duplicate to the efforts made by others.
>>     If any names I suggest we have a bot autoupdating all name tags
>>     according to the values in Wikidata. If there is no Wikidata item
>>     it should be found/created.
>>     It really is'nt hard to populate a map with geographical data
>>     from OSM and query the names the user wants to see from WD.
>>     This offloads a huge burden as I see it.
>>     All our tools that currently invites our users to include a name
>>     could be adapted so that the user is aware that OSM is about
>>     geodata and names are for WD and best stored/updated there.
>>     If we allow a name to be set only when no qid we avoid the bulk
>>     of these problems.
>>     When a qid is set a bot could remove all names for languages
>>     already present in WD.
>>     On March 25, 2020 10:45:03 AM GMT+01:00, Andrew Hain
>>     <andrewhainosm at hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>         Why on earth would we not (excluding exceptional copyright
>>         issues) want to have lots of different name:XX tags?
>>         --
>>         Andrew
>>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>         *From:* Frederik Ramm <frederik at remote.org>
>>         *Sent:* 25 March 2020 09:26
>>         *To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
>>         <tagging at openstreetmap.org>
>>         *Subject:* [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for
>>         name:xx tags?
>>         Hi,
>>         the "name:xx" tags are something of an exception in OSM
>>         because while we
>>         defer to "local knowledge" as the highest-ranking source
>>         normally, this
>>         is not being done for name:xx tags. It is possible for no
>>         single citizen
>>         of the city of Karlsruhe to know its Russian name, but still
>>         a Russian
>>         name could exist. Who is the highest-ranking source for that?
>>         My guess is that about 5% of name:xx tags in OSM actually
>>         represent a
>>         unique name in its own right; all others are either copies of
>>         the name
>>         tag ("this city does not have its own name in language XX but
>>         I want
>>         every city to have a name:xx tag so I'll just copy the name
>>         tag"), or
>>         transliterations (or, worst case, even literal translations).
>>         A while ago we had a longer discussion about Esperanto names;
>>         in that
>>         discussion, it was questioned whether Esperanto could be in
>>         the name tag
>>         but nobody disputed that adding name:eo tags is ok, even though
>>         Esperanto is an invented (or "constructed") language.
>>         Yesterday someone added a few dozen Klingon names to
>>         countries in OSM. I
>>         have reverted that because of a copyright issue, but I think
>>         we also
>>         need to discuss which languages we want to accept for name:xx
>>         tags.
>>         In my opinion, a name:xx tag should only be added if you can
>>         demonstrate
>>         that people natively speaking the living language xx are
>>         actually using
>>         this name for this entity. I think we have a very unhealthy
>>         inflation of
>>         names in OSM that are added by "single-purpose mappers" -
>>         they come in,
>>         stick a name:my-favourite-language tag onto everything, and
>>         go away
>>         again. Nobody knows if these names are even correct, and
>>         nobody cares
>>         for their maintenance. The country North Macedonia changed
>>         its name
>>         almost one year ago, yet roughly half of its ~ 170 name tags
>>         are still
>>         what they were before this change. Nobody cares; these names
>>         suggest a
>>         data richness that is not backed up by an actual living
>>         community that
>>         cares for them.
>>         What are your opinions on which languages should be accepted
>>         in name
>>         tags? What do you think about
>>         * niche constructed languages (say, FredLang which has 2 words I
>>         invented just now)
>>         * popular constructed languages (Klingon, Elvish) - note
>>         place names in
>>         these languages will often be algorithmically derived from
>>         the English
>>         or local name
>>         * "serious" constructed languages (Esperanto)
>>         * languages that once existed but are not natively spoken any
>>         more (Roman)
>>         * languages that are natively spoken but their speakers do
>>         not have
>>         their own name for the entity in question (instead they use
>>         the same
>>         name the locals use, possibly transcribed into a different
>>         alphabet)
>>         * ...
>>         Or if you don't have the time to think about this in detail,
>>         just answer
>>         the question: tlhIngan Hol - Hlja' or ghobe'?
>>         Bye
>>         Frederik
>>     _______________________________________________
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>>     Tagging at openstreetmap.org
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