[Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?
Simon Poole
simon at poole.ch
Fri Mar 27 09:47:23 UTC 2020
Just using the entry for your place, do you really think that an entry
like say
Swiss High GermanHärnösand
makes sense? (Swiss High German is de-CH).
Simon
Am 27.03.2020 um 10:07 schrieb pangose at riseup.net:
> Hi Simon.
>
> Do you have a link? The Municipality I live in has sensible names in
> WD https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3240427
>
> Does it matter to us in OSM if it "has the name"? I'm thinking that we
> outsource all the naming to WD to deal with and fight over.
> In OSM we could instead concentrate on e.g. what language codes to
> display on osm.org e.g. name_osm=sv for a city with dominant Swedish
> population and name_osm=se for a town/city where most are Sami.
> In the case of double naming on the ground we could have something
> like: name_osm= code1 / code2
> Where code1 is the e.g. the Welsh and code2 is the English name.
>
> The idea in these cases is the we get rid of all other name tags that
> can be stored and curated better in WD.
>
> On March 25, 2020 10:48:45 PM GMT+01:00, Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch>
> wrote:
>
> Note that lots of the wikidata names are nonsense and are simply
> derived from the wikipedia page name (which a wp page has to have,
> but it doesn't imply that the object actually has a name in the
> language of the wikipedia you are looking at). For example the
> municipality I live in has a German and a Swiss-German name, it
> -doesn't- have names in any of the other 31 languages that are listed.
>
> Simon
>
> Am 25.03.2020 um 11:00 schrieb pangose at riseup.net:
>> Honestly I don't think it makes sense for OSM to have names at
>> all on objects which has a Wikidata reference. We are just too
>> small a community to keep this updated and it has little value to
>> duplicate to the efforts made by others.
>> If any names I suggest we have a bot autoupdating all name tags
>> according to the values in Wikidata. If there is no Wikidata item
>> it should be found/created.
>> It really is'nt hard to populate a map with geographical data
>> from OSM and query the names the user wants to see from WD.
>> This offloads a huge burden as I see it.
>> All our tools that currently invites our users to include a name
>> could be adapted so that the user is aware that OSM is about
>> geodata and names are for WD and best stored/updated there.
>> If we allow a name to be set only when no qid we avoid the bulk
>> of these problems.
>> When a qid is set a bot could remove all names for languages
>> already present in WD.
>>
>> On March 25, 2020 10:45:03 AM GMT+01:00, Andrew Hain
>> <andrewhainosm at hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Why on earth would we not (excluding exceptional copyright
>> issues) want to have lots of different name:XX tags?
>>
>> --
>> Andrew
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Frederik Ramm <frederik at remote.org>
>> *Sent:* 25 March 2020 09:26
>> *To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
>> <tagging at openstreetmap.org>
>> *Subject:* [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for
>> name:xx tags?
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> the "name:xx" tags are something of an exception in OSM
>> because while we
>> defer to "local knowledge" as the highest-ranking source
>> normally, this
>> is not being done for name:xx tags. It is possible for no
>> single citizen
>> of the city of Karlsruhe to know its Russian name, but still
>> a Russian
>> name could exist. Who is the highest-ranking source for that?
>>
>> My guess is that about 5% of name:xx tags in OSM actually
>> represent a
>> unique name in its own right; all others are either copies of
>> the name
>> tag ("this city does not have its own name in language XX but
>> I want
>> every city to have a name:xx tag so I'll just copy the name
>> tag"), or
>> transliterations (or, worst case, even literal translations).
>>
>> A while ago we had a longer discussion about Esperanto names;
>> in that
>> discussion, it was questioned whether Esperanto could be in
>> the name tag
>> but nobody disputed that adding name:eo tags is ok, even though
>> Esperanto is an invented (or "constructed") language.
>>
>> Yesterday someone added a few dozen Klingon names to
>> countries in OSM. I
>> have reverted that because of a copyright issue, but I think
>> we also
>> need to discuss which languages we want to accept for name:xx
>> tags.
>>
>> In my opinion, a name:xx tag should only be added if you can
>> demonstrate
>> that people natively speaking the living language xx are
>> actually using
>> this name for this entity. I think we have a very unhealthy
>> inflation of
>> names in OSM that are added by "single-purpose mappers" -
>> they come in,
>> stick a name:my-favourite-language tag onto everything, and
>> go away
>> again. Nobody knows if these names are even correct, and
>> nobody cares
>> for their maintenance. The country North Macedonia changed
>> its name
>> almost one year ago, yet roughly half of its ~ 170 name tags
>> are still
>> what they were before this change. Nobody cares; these names
>> suggest a
>> data richness that is not backed up by an actual living
>> community that
>> cares for them.
>>
>> What are your opinions on which languages should be accepted
>> in name
>> tags? What do you think about
>>
>> * niche constructed languages (say, FredLang which has 2 words I
>> invented just now)
>> * popular constructed languages (Klingon, Elvish) - note
>> place names in
>> these languages will often be algorithmically derived from
>> the English
>> or local name
>> * "serious" constructed languages (Esperanto)
>> * languages that once existed but are not natively spoken any
>> more (Roman)
>> * languages that are natively spoken but their speakers do
>> not have
>> their own name for the entity in question (instead they use
>> the same
>> name the locals use, possibly transcribed into a different
>> alphabet)
>> * ...
>>
>> Or if you don't have the time to think about this in detail,
>> just answer
>> the question: tlhIngan Hol - Hlja' or ghobe'?
>>
>> Bye
>> Frederik
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Tagging at openstreetmap.org
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>
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