[Tagging] religious bias - Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

Brian M. Sperlongano zelonewolf at gmail.com
Wed Nov 4 23:22:54 UTC 2020


Perhaps deceased_viewing then?  If that's the actual amenity that we are
describing?

On Wed, Nov 4, 2020 at 6:20 PM Peter Elderson <pelderson at gmail.com> wrote:

> place_of_mourning then? Just like place_of_worship?
>
> One could argue that this misses the point, because it's about viewing the
> deceased and you can mourn anywhere. Then again, you can worship anywhere,
> but in these special places the worshipped entity is usually represented
> and highlighted by objects and decorations, and often actually presumed
> present. The deceased may also be just represented.
>
>
> Peter Elderson
>
>
> Op wo 4 nov. 2020 om 23:30 schreef Paul Allen <pla16021 at gmail.com>:
>
>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 at 20:50, Tom Pfeifer <t.pfeifer at computer.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I was surprised that this tag is rushed into voting despite the
>>> arguments against it even here in the tagging list discussions.
>>>
>>
>> The proposal itself contains paragraphs indicating it is a work in
>> progress
>> rather than a finished proposal.  I would have commented but the wiki
>> is using a black-hole service that has blocked a large chunk of
>> addresses belonging to my mobile network because some open
>> proxies were detected.  This is not really ideal for a mobile
>> service where IP addresses are very volatile.
>>
>>>
>>> Let's summarize the criticism first, and look into the alternative
>>> "mourning room"
>>>
>>
>> Not in current use in British English.  And even when it was used, it
>> generally referred to the room in a house that we now call the
>> "living room."  See
>> https://www.vintag.es/2018/01/living-room-what-we-call-today-was.html
>> Also not really suited to a large, dedicated building with more than one
>> room
>> for this purpose.  It's that "room" bit that is the problem.
>>
>> * Vollis (the proposer) 18 Sep: ""chapel" will be opposed by some for
>>> being religiously connotated"
>>>
>>
>> He was correct.  But it's rare for a proposal to get unanimous approval.
>>
>>>
>>> * Peter Elderson 21 Sep: "I have heard mourning chapel, mourning room,
>>> funeral chapel, funeral room.
>>> Chapel of rest does not seem right to me"
>>>
>>
>> As I understand it, English (British, American or any other variety) is
>> not
>> Peter's first language.
>>
>>>
>>> * Clifford Snow 24 Sep: "Chapel of Rest" sounds to me more like a
>>> marketing term not something we should be using in OSM.
>>>
>>
>> What something "sounds like" to an individual is not a strong determinant
>> of
>> its propriety.
>>
>>>
>>> * Michael Patrick 24 Sep: 'Chapel of Rest' seems to be a dated UK
>>> specific term.
>>
>>
>> It's what they're known as in my part of the UK.  So still contemporary
>> in at least
>> parts of the UK.
>>
>>
>>> ... The euphemistic 'Chapel of Rest' is more generically known as
>>> 'Viewing /Visitation Service',
>>>
>>
>> "amenity=visitatation_service" makes even less semantic sense than
>> "amenity=mourning_room."  It's not a term I've encountered, anyway.
>>
>>
>>> * 27 Sep: 'Chapel of Rest' seems to be one of those terms like 'Take the
>>> goat to the butcher...
>>>
>>
>> That sentence no sense makes.
>>
>>
>>> * 28 Sep: since OSM is an international project, my practice is to make
>>> it as easy as possible for non-native English users.
>>>
>>
>> That is why editors have translations of their presets.
>>
>>>
>>> Indeed, the proposed value contains 'chapel' which is biased to
>>> christian religion.
>>
>> It might be used in British English, however that is biased itself for
>>> having
>>>
>> Christianity as a cultural background.
>>>
>>
>> Congratulations.  You have successfully argued that we must change from
>> using British English to the language of a country which has no
>> religious cultural background whatsoever.  Offhand, I can't think of
>> such a country but why should that stop us?
>>
>> "Chapel of rest" is an euphemism that avoids death-related terminology,
>>> butmight be mistaken for a chapel where somebody could rest along a hiking
>>> or pilgrim route.
>>
>>
>> Except that the correct name for such a chapel is "chapel of ease" not
>> "chapel of rest."
>>
>>
>>> OSM is a map for the whole world, and it does not improve acceptance
>>> when
>>>
>> a bunch of old white males (such as myself) chose a biased term for a
>>> feature
>>>
>> that naturally exists in other cultural/religious contexts as well.
>>
>>
>> Do other religions have such places?  If so, what do they call them?  And
>> can we then abstract a neutral name from that?
>>
>>
>>> To close with an alternative, "mourning room" would be a neutral
>>> alternative from my perspective, reflecting the process of mourning which I
>>> suppose exists in all cultures.
>>>
>>
>> I object to room being applied to a building which may have many such
>> rooms.
>> I'd have less of a problem with amenity=mourning.
>>
>> --
>> Paul
>>
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