[Tagging] religious bias - Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

Peter Elderson pelderson at gmail.com
Wed Nov 4 23:17:59 UTC 2020


place_of_mourning then? Just like place_of_worship?

One could argue that this misses the point, because it's about viewing the
deceased and you can mourn anywhere. Then again, you can worship anywhere,
but in these special places the worshipped entity is usually represented
and highlighted by objects and decorations, and often actually presumed
present. The deceased may also be just represented.


Peter Elderson


Op wo 4 nov. 2020 om 23:30 schreef Paul Allen <pla16021 at gmail.com>:

> On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 at 20:50, Tom Pfeifer <t.pfeifer at computer.org> wrote:
>
>> I was surprised that this tag is rushed into voting despite the arguments
>> against it even here in the tagging list discussions.
>>
>
> The proposal itself contains paragraphs indicating it is a work in progress
> rather than a finished proposal.  I would have commented but the wiki
> is using a black-hole service that has blocked a large chunk of
> addresses belonging to my mobile network because some open
> proxies were detected.  This is not really ideal for a mobile
> service where IP addresses are very volatile.
>
>>
>> Let's summarize the criticism first, and look into the alternative
>> "mourning room"
>>
>
> Not in current use in British English.  And even when it was used, it
> generally referred to the room in a house that we now call the
> "living room."  See
> https://www.vintag.es/2018/01/living-room-what-we-call-today-was.html
> Also not really suited to a large, dedicated building with more than one
> room
> for this purpose.  It's that "room" bit that is the problem.
>
> * Vollis (the proposer) 18 Sep: ""chapel" will be opposed by some for
>> being religiously connotated"
>>
>
> He was correct.  But it's rare for a proposal to get unanimous approval.
>
>>
>> * Peter Elderson 21 Sep: "I have heard mourning chapel, mourning room,
>> funeral chapel, funeral room.
>> Chapel of rest does not seem right to me"
>>
>
> As I understand it, English (British, American or any other variety) is not
> Peter's first language.
>
>>
>> * Clifford Snow 24 Sep: "Chapel of Rest" sounds to me more like a
>> marketing term not something we should be using in OSM.
>>
>
> What something "sounds like" to an individual is not a strong determinant
> of
> its propriety.
>
>>
>> * Michael Patrick 24 Sep: 'Chapel of Rest' seems to be a dated UK
>> specific term.
>
>
> It's what they're known as in my part of the UK.  So still contemporary in
> at least
> parts of the UK.
>
>
>> ... The euphemistic 'Chapel of Rest' is more generically known as
>> 'Viewing /Visitation Service',
>>
>
> "amenity=visitatation_service" makes even less semantic sense than
> "amenity=mourning_room."  It's not a term I've encountered, anyway.
>
>
>> * 27 Sep: 'Chapel of Rest' seems to be one of those terms like 'Take the
>> goat to the butcher...
>>
>
> That sentence no sense makes.
>
>
>> * 28 Sep: since OSM is an international project, my practice is to make
>> it as easy as possible for non-native English users.
>>
>
> That is why editors have translations of their presets.
>
>>
>> Indeed, the proposed value contains 'chapel' which is biased to christian
>> religion.
>
> It might be used in British English, however that is biased itself for
>> having
>>
> Christianity as a cultural background.
>>
>
> Congratulations.  You have successfully argued that we must change from
> using British English to the language of a country which has no
> religious cultural background whatsoever.  Offhand, I can't think of
> such a country but why should that stop us?
>
> "Chapel of rest" is an euphemism that avoids death-related terminology,
>> butmight be mistaken for a chapel where somebody could rest along a hiking
>> or pilgrim route.
>
>
> Except that the correct name for such a chapel is "chapel of ease" not
> "chapel of rest."
>
>
>> OSM is a map for the whole world, and it does not improve acceptance when
>>
> a bunch of old white males (such as myself) chose a biased term for a
>> feature
>>
> that naturally exists in other cultural/religious contexts as well.
>
>
> Do other religions have such places?  If so, what do they call them?  And
> can we then abstract a neutral name from that?
>
>
>> To close with an alternative, "mourning room" would be a neutral
>> alternative from my perspective, reflecting the process of mourning which I
>> suppose exists in all cultures.
>>
>
> I object to room being applied to a building which may have many such
> rooms.
> I'd have less of a problem with amenity=mourning.
>
> --
> Paul
>
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