[Tagging] Tagging Digest, Vol 133, Issue 35 man-made

Thu Oct 22 20:50:56 UTC 2020

Hi Martin & members,

Besides the frequently named bridge, there are several oil / petroleum wells in the same category man-made.
I reccon no one has ever counted them, you could Fill the Albert Hall with them.
In my humble opinion its a not very well thought idea and the describtion of the old English man made is undoubtely sex less.

Greetz.

________________________________
Van: tagging-request at openstreetmap.org <tagging-request at openstreetmap.org>
Verzonden: donderdag 15 oktober 2020 11:41
Aan: tagging at openstreetmap.org <tagging at openstreetmap.org>
Onderwerp: Tagging Digest, Vol 133, Issue 35

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: What does bicycle=no on a node means? (Martin Koppenhoefer)
   2. Re: Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made
      (Martin Koppenhoefer)
   3. Re: Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made
      (Robert Delmenico)
   4. Re: railway=station areas (Martin Koppenhoefer)
   5. Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Rideshare Access (nathan case)

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Message: 1
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 09:42:59 +0200
From: Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdreist at gmail.com>
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
        <tagging at openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] What does bicycle=no on a node means?
Message-ID: <C85EF38E-696F-4A66-A131-D8B6E027073E at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

sent from a phone

> On 13. Oct 2020, at 23:42, Volker Schmidt <voschix at gmail.com> wrote:
> I changed the crossing to the way we do it in many parts of Europe, i.e. a crossing node and a crossing way.

I thought the standard was highway=crossing on the nodes where they cross the road and highway=footway with footway=crossing on the way segment between the kerbs (if sidewalks are mapped) or between the crossing nodes (if several carriageways are present).

The crossing=* tags in this scheme go on the nodes, and after some wiki fiddling a long time ago, possibly also on the ways.

The idea to use crossing=* as a on ways stems from user ULamm https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Acrossing&type=revision&diff=1077856&oldid=1068935

And became successively popular:
https://taghistory.raifer.tech/#way/highway/crossing&way/crossing/

The reason for the edit is “see discussion”, but frankly, looking at the discussion, it is all but convincing that this edit was justified: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Key:crossing&oldid=1093129#Node_or_line

Generally, I would propose to only tag crossing =* on the crossing node, but refrain from access like tags on this node (no bicycle or foot tags). The access should be derived from the crossing ways.
This still fails to add crossing specifics for situations where the crossing ways are not mapped, so alternatively we could state that we only add positive access tags to crossings. Imagine I would add hgv=no or motorcycle=no tags to pedestrian crossings, IMHO this would be as correct as adding bicycle=no, because neither of them can cross at the pedestrian crossing, but overall it could be seen as very bad tagging because of the ambiguity (for the road users).

Cheers Martin
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 10:36:13 +0200
From: Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdreist at gmail.com>
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
        <tagging at openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to
        key:human_made
Message-ID: <43016BBC-F429-447C-AFD2-8533ECCA7969 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

sent from a phone

> On 15. Oct 2020, at 02:57, Robert Delmenico <robert at rtbk.com.au> wrote:
>
> I also understand that generally speaking the use of man_made is commonly accepted as a gender neutral term, but in reality it has been adapted that way due to past practices of gender bias.

I fear in „human“ there is still a man, even in every woman there‘s a man, as in female there is a male. Overall it looks as if English is not suitable for gender neutral language, everything refers back to men. I propose to use German as the language for tags.
It might look like an impossible endeavor at first glance to retag those millions or billions of objects, but if you dig deeper you will find that many tags are already more German than English, so ultimately it wouldn’t be as much change as it may sound initially.

Cheers Martin

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 19:46:14 +1100
From: Robert Delmenico <robert at rtbk.com.au>
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
        <tagging at openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to
        key:human_made
Message-ID:
        <CA+KTxmJZ+x0JWY74jOD18xEOkBS1gz-_AxZHD3npYWXPEfcHnw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Good point Martin. Someone else has suggested artificial as another
alternative. I'm open to all feedback at this stage and happy if anyone
wants to add onto the proposal the pros and cons of that's allowed.

Rob

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020, 7:38 pm Martin Koppenhoefer, <dieterdreist at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 15. Oct 2020, at 02:57, Robert Delmenico <robert at rtbk.com.au> wrote:
> >
> > I also understand that generally speaking the use of man_made is
> commonly accepted as a gender neutral term, but in reality it has been
> adapted that way due to past practices of gender bias.
>
>
> I fear in „human“ there is still a man, even in every woman there‘s a man,
> as in female there is a male. Overall it looks as if English is not
> suitable for gender neutral language, everything refers back to men. I
> propose to use German as the language for tags.
> It might look like an impossible endeavor at first glance to retag those
> millions or billions of objects, but if you dig deeper you will find that
> many tags are already more German than English, so ultimately it wouldn’t
> be as much change as it may sound initially.
>
> Cheers Martin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging at openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 11:27:14 +0200
From: Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdreist at gmail.com>
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
        <tagging at openstreetmap.org>
Cc: Dave F <davefoxfac63 at btinternet.com>, "John D." <jdd3 at mail.ru>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] railway=station areas
Message-ID: <C6014839-6257-4FD0-9F98-BFD4A0A52ADE at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

sent from a phone

> On 14. Oct 2020, at 15:44, Dave F via Tagging <tagging at openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
> Please send messages to forum, John.

from where are you citing here? A private email?

Can we please discuss publicly here, and keep private discussion private?

Thank you,
Cheers Martin

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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 09:41:04 +0000
From: nathan case <nathancase at outlook.com>
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
        <tagging at openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Rideshare Access
Message-ID:
        <DB7PR01MB4966236284819AE5D89F856CD4020 at DB7PR01MB4966.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Clare: this is a good discussion to have.

It seems as though the emergence of rideshare services is still being addressed at various legal levels but, at least in the UK, rideshare vehicles are not classed taxis and so are not ordinarily entitled to use bus/taxi lanes. If situations exist where rideshares are specifically allowed (or not), and that access is distinct from taxi or a regular motor_vehicle, then a key should exist to denote that. I note that the proposal has been updated to reflect such cases.

> Joseph Eisenberg: But you will also need to add a definition of a "rideshare vehicle", since this will need to be translated for places where Lyft and Uber do not operate, and where English is not used (e.g. Indonesia). Unfortunately I don't see a good online source for a definition.

Perhaps such definitions are dependent upon local/national legislation. In your follow on examples, do those services enjoy the same access rights as PSVs? If yes, then perhaps they should simply be covered by that tag? If they do not, do they have any additional or fewer access rights than simply motor_vehicle/cycle? If not, then perhaps they should simply be covered by those respective tags?

So a definition could be something along the lines of: “A private hire vehicle, often booked through an online service or a mobile application, that does not enjoy the same legal standing as a taxi service. Exact definition may depend on local law but usually denotes services such as Uber and Lyft.”

A taxi that also takes bookings/collects fares via an app is still a taxi, in my opinion.

Regards,

Nathan

From: Joseph Eisenberg <joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 12:32 AM
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <tagging at openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Rideshare Access

Clare,

The "proposal" section currently fails to include the actual proposal: that is, what new key and tags are you proposing to use?

It looks like the proposal is: "approve the use of the new key "rideshare=" with values "yes" and "no" to specify legal access for rideshare vehicles."
But you will also need to add a definition of a "rideshare vehicle", since this will need to be translated for places where Lyft and Uber do not operate, and where English is not used (e.g. Indonesia). Unfortunately I don't see a good online source for a definition.

Is a Gojek motorcycle a rideshare vehicle? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gojek
What about pedicabs (tricycles) which are hailed with a smartphone app?
Or should only passenger cars be included?
What about taxis which also get fares via an app?

- Joseph Eisenberg

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 1:44 PM Clare Corthell via Tagging <tagging at openstreetmap.org<mailto:tagging at openstreetmap.org>> wrote:

Hi Tagging List,

Here is the RFC for the proposal for rideshare vehicle access:

Proposal: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Rideshare_Access

Discussion: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Proposed_features/Rideshare_Access

This proposes the addition of rideshare as a use-based access mode for land-based transportation. This would enable mapping restriction or permission of rideshare vehicles to nodes and ways. As mentioned in the proposal example cases<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Rideshare_Access#Case_.231:_Denver_Airport>, this typically arises in dense traffic patterns such as airport pickup zones.

This proposal originated from the experience of the Lyft mapping team seeking to improve the accuracy of routes we build from an OSM-based map. Because our rideshare operations are North America based, we bring a perspective that centers the policy for right-of-way in this context. We would especially appreciate feedback on the applicability of this tagging to other parts of the world.

Looking forward to your commentary and feedback.

Clare

--
Clare Corthell
Product Manager, Lyft Mapping
How Lyft Creates Hyper-Accurate Maps from Open-Source Maps and Real-Time Data<https://eng.lyft.com/how-lyft-creates-hyper-accurate-maps-from-open-source-maps-and-real-time-data-8dcf9abdd46a>
[Image removed by sender.]

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