[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Couloir

walker.t.bradley at gmail.com walker.t.bradley at gmail.com
Thu Feb 4 16:34:12 UTC 2021


I concur with Phil et al. Couloir and other "French" terms are widely used in English for highly specific features in mountaineering and are often used for route finding.  Cirques, pistes, and couloirs are all perfect examples:

Here is a route description taken verbatim from 14ers.com(https://www.14ers.com/route.php?route=long5&peak=Longs+Peak):
>From the hiking trail, it is about 1.6 miles of bushwhacking to reach timberline. Nearby is an unnamed lake, at 11,200 feet. From here, continue straight uphill into the basin ( 2).

Ahead, Keplinger's Couloir is readily visible as the westernmost (farthest left) couloir, splitting Longs' south face ( 3 and  4).

Climbing the couloir is straight-forward, and at its very steepest it may reach 45 degrees. The couloir stretches from 12,000 feet to 13,600 feet ( 5,  6,  7 and  8). Nearing the top, the climber will be immediately to the left of the Palisades and Southeast Longs ( 9 and  14).

At the top of the couloir, turn left (west), onto the ledge or snow-shelf. This section can range from a talus walk-up in summer to steep snow slopes exceeding 50 degrees in the winter ( 10 and  11). This ramp eventually leads to the Homestretch ( 12), where yellow and red bullseyes are painted on the rocks, for the final push to the summit ( 13 and  15).

Walker KB (WalkerB)

-----Original Message-----
From: Philip Barnes <phil at trigpoint.me.uk> 
Sent: Thursday, 4 February, 2021 12:57
To: tagging at openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Couloir

On Thu, 2021-02-04 at 12:22 +0000, pierrick pratter via Tagging wrote:
> 
> 
> > With this confusion of term, and the relative rarity of the term in 
> > English
> 
> The thing is that the English word "couloir" describe exactly this 
> topological features and nothing else compared to the French word that 
> can be applicable to different situation.
> It also might be rarely used because there are not a lot of people 
> that climb these things, I'm sure that if you talk to English people 
> that do a lot of mountaineering, they would exactly know what it is.

Speaking as a Brit who climbs mountains sometimes, I fully support the above. The term when I first saw the subject was obvious to me that it is about tagging in the mountains.

English borrows many words from French in mountaineering and skiing.
For example Piste (the French word for a track). In English it refers exclusively to a ski run.
> 
> > What about "gully" instead.
> 
Gully has too wide a meaning in English, and does not have the same precision of meaning as Couloir. Gully is more to do with drainage.

Phil (trigpoint)



> I really doesn't whant to go in another description again, I made a 
> section dedicated on the proposal article with images to visually 
> describe the differences.
> I understand that the word gully is applicable by it's general 
> definition but this is a very precise topological features in alpine 
> terrain. In those terrain we also have gullies but this word is not 
> general too and describe very narrow cracks in cliffs as wide as one 
> or two people, so this tag make the difference between what is clearly 
> a couloir and what is cleary a gully.
> 
> It is important to make the difference because topological features 
> are used a lot to orientate oneself in those terrain, it is even used 
> by rescue team to find people and study the terrain for danger 
> exposition.
> 
> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
>  On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 11:21 PM, Volker Schmidt < 
> voschix at gmail.com> wrote:
>  
> > From the photos on duck duck go, it seems that these couloirs are 
> > steep valleys with steep walls which become couloirs in winter.when 
> > they are full with snow.
> > 
> > Apart from that it seems that in French "couloir" as geographic 
> > feature describes an avalanche channel (couloir d'avalanche).
> > In the French term "couloir" used in German means something similar 
> > to the French original:
> > " Ein Couloir (französisch für Korridor) ist eine von Felsen 
> > begrenzte und oft mit Schnee oder Eis gefüllte Rinne an einem 
> > Berghang oder in einer Bergwand.
> > Couloirs sind steil und meist eng und aufgrund ihrer Struktur meist 
> > dem Stein- oder Eisschlag ausgesetzt." (Wiiipedia)
> > 
> > The big photograph in Pierrick's post above is certainly not showing 
> > a French or German couloir.
> > In German there is also the term Rinne (English: gulley), for 
> > something like a Couloir that does not imply snow.
> > 
> > With this confusion of term, and the relative rarity of the term in 
> > English, I would suggest not to use it in OSM.
> > 
> > What about "gully" instead.
> > 
> > BTW the French term "couloir" in general is a corridor for people 
> > (in buildings) or materials (in the mountains)
> > 
> > 
> > Virus-free. www.avast.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 at 21:33, Joseph Eisenberg < 
> > joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > The tag needs to have a clear definition which explains how it is 
> > > different than natural=gorge, natural=gully or especially 
> > > natural=valley
> > > 
> > > -- Joseph Eisenberg
> > > 
> > > On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 10:25 AM Walker Kosmidou-Bradley < 
> > > walker.t.bradley at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > A couloir is a particular feature of mountain topography, not 
> > > > just a tight valley.  Unlike a valley, there is no floor, it’s a 
> > > > confined space often used for ascents or descents.
> > > > 
> > > > > On Feb 3, 2021, at 17:59, Volker Schmidt <voschix at gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > What makes a couloir different from a (steep) valley? Only the 
> > > > > steepness?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Volker
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 at 18:21, pierrick pratter via Tagging < 
> > > > > tagging at openstreetmap.org> wrote:
> > > > > > Renewal of the natural=couloir tag :
> > > > > > Proposed_features/couloir_2
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Definition : A narrow gully with a steep gradient in a 
> > > > > > mountainous terrain 
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