[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Couloir

Thu Feb 4 17:35:07 UTC 2021

As yet another American who in younger years did a little mountain climbing I want to reinforce Kevin’s reply.

Couloir is definitely used in climbing to describe a specific feature. And other words like gully do not accurately convey the same information.

--
Sent from my phone, please forgive my brevity.

> On Thursday, Feb 04, 2021 at 6:32 AM, Kevin Broderick <ktb at kevinbroderick.com (mailto:ktb at kevinbroderick.com)> wrote:
> Speaking as an American who wishes he got to spend more time in couloirs and less in front of the computer, I agree with Phil and Pierrick.
>
> I'd also note that having couloirs specifically mapped could be enormously helpful for route-finding in ski mountaineering (not to mention SAR efforts if someone is reported injured at the bottom of "Hanging Couloir" or such). I doubt it would be likely to happen anytime soon in the areas I'm thinking about—most of them barely have the road network mapped—but if we got there, I can see a significant benefit.
>
> On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 7:59 AM Philip Barnes <phil at trigpoint.me.uk (mailto:phil at trigpoint.me.uk)> wrote:
> > On Thu, 2021-02-04 at 12:22 +0000, pierrick pratter via Tagging wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > With this confusion of term, and the relative rarity of the term in
> > > > English
> > >
> > > The thing is that the English word "couloir" describe exactly this
> > > topological features and nothing else compared to the French word
> > > that can be applicable to different situation.
> > > It also might be rarely used because there are not a lot of people
> > > that climb these things, I'm sure that if you talk to English people
> > > that do a lot of mountaineering, they would exactly know what it is.
> >
> > Speaking as a Brit who climbs mountains sometimes, I fully support the
> > above. The term when I first saw the subject was obvious to me that it
> > is about tagging in the mountains.
> >
> > English borrows many words from French in mountaineering and skiing.
> > For example Piste (the French word for a track). In English it refers
> > exclusively to a ski run.
> > >
> > > > What about "gully" instead.
> > >
> > Gully has too wide a meaning in English, and does not have the same
> > precision of meaning as Couloir. Gully is more to do with drainage.
> >
> > Phil (trigpoint)
> >
> >
> >
> > > I really doesn't whant to go in another description again, I made a
> > > section dedicated on the proposal article with images to visually
> > > describe the differences.
> > > I understand that the word gully is applicable by it's general
> > > definition but this is a very precise topological features in alpine
> > > terrain. In those terrain we also have gullies but this word is not
> > > general too and describe very narrow cracks in cliffs as wide as one
> > > or two people, so this tag make the difference between what is
> > > clearly a couloir and what is cleary a gully.
> > >
> > > It is important to make the difference because topological features
> > > are used a lot to orientate oneself in those terrain, it is even used
> > > by rescue team to find people and study the terrain for danger
> > > exposition.
> > >
> > > ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
> > > On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 11:21 PM, Volker Schmidt <
> > > voschix at gmail.com (mailto:voschix at gmail.com)> wrote:
> > >
> > > > From the photos on duck duck go, it seems that these couloirs are
> > > > steep valleys with steep walls which become couloirs in winter.when
> > > > they are full with snow.
> > > >
> > > > Apart from that it seems that in French "couloir" as geographic
> > > > feature describes an avalanche channel (couloir d'avalanche).
> > > > In the French term "couloir" used in German means something similar
> > > > to the French original:
> > > > " Ein Couloir (französisch für Korridor) ist eine von Felsen
> > > > begrenzte und oft mit Schnee oder Eis gefüllte Rinne an einem
> > > > Berghang oder in einer Bergwand.
> > > > Couloirs sind steil und meist eng und aufgrund ihrer Struktur meist
> > > > dem Stein- oder Eisschlag ausgesetzt." (Wiiipedia)
> > > >
> > > > The big photograph in Pierrick's post above is certainly not
> > > > showing a French or German couloir.
> > > > In German there is also the term Rinne (English: gulley), for
> > > > something like a Couloir that does not imply snow.
> > > >
> > > > With this confusion of term, and the relative rarity of the term in
> > > > English, I would suggest not to use it in OSM.
> > > >
> > > > What about "gully" instead.
> > > >
> > > > BTW the French term "couloir" in general is a corridor for people
> > > > (in buildings) or materials (in the mountains)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com (http://www.avast.com)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 at 21:33, Joseph Eisenberg <
> > > > joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com (mailto:joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com)> wrote:
> > > > > The tag needs to have a clear definition which explains how it is
> > > > > different than natural=gorge, natural=gully or especially
> > > > > natural=valley
> > > > >
> > > > > -- Joseph Eisenberg
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 10:25 AM Walker Kosmidou-Bradley <
> > > > > walker.t.bradley at gmail.com (mailto:walker.t.bradley at gmail.com)> wrote:
> > > > > > A couloir is a particular feature of mountain topography, not
> > > > > > just a tight valley. Unlike a valley, there is no floor, it’s
> > > > > > a confined space often used for ascents or descents.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Feb 3, 2021, at 17:59, Volker Schmidt <voschix at gmail.com (mailto:voschix at gmail.com)>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > What makes a couloir different from a (steep) valley? Only
> > > > > > > the steepness?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Volker
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com (http://www.avast.com)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 at 18:21, pierrick pratter via Tagging <
> > > > > > > tagging at openstreetmap.org (mailto:tagging at openstreetmap.org)> wrote:
> > > > > > > > Renewal of the natural=couloir tag :
> > > > > > > > Proposed_features/couloir_2
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Definition : A narrow gully with a steep gradient in a
> > > > > > > > mountainous terrain
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>
> --
> Kevin Broderick
> ktb at kevinbroderick.com (mailto:ktb at kevinbroderick.com)
>
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