[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - landuse bush
Vincent van Duijnhoven
vincenttemp at vanduijnhoven.xyz
Sun Feb 14 17:15:37 UTC 2021
I just had a discussion with Brian on the topic. Is it an idea to instead of introducing landuse=shrub, extend the natural=scrub with a new tag scrub=wild|decorative? This better describes the type of scrub than denotation=* or managed=*.
As explained by Bert Araali, natural=scrub is currently already used to tag the kind of decorative scrub as illustrated in my proposal for landuse=shrub. By adding a new tag to natural=scrub, all that work does not need to be changed. An advantage is that already gets rendered on carto. The wiki then needs to be changed to address this broader definition of scrub and that natural=scrub can be further defined with scrub=wild|decorative.
Any thoughts on this?
Greetings,
Vincent
14 feb. 2021 14:06 van bert.araali.afritastic at gmail.com:
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> Hi Vincent,
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> I actually didn't mean an extension of the use of natural=scrub. In many areas across the world it is already used in the same context. For instance here in Africa we have a lot of bushes planted in parks, golf cources, urban areas etc... They are mostly all tagged as natural=scrub and is a tagging habbit grown In most cases they are managed through clipping, weeding etc... although, due to the fact we don't do it that often, they might look "unmanaged".
> > If you mean with native english speakers UK and US, they don't relate the term scrub to shrub and bushes in built up areas, your reasoning might be correct. Other "native" English speaking areas, like here in Africa and Australia have another interpretation of the term "bush" in daily use. As we try to find a global consensus, the term scrub seems to cover the targeted vegetation type.> Using the term "uncultivated land" in it's definition is not wrong but needs to be clarified, to my interpretation it refers to the land the vegetation grows upon. Of course I agree completely that we need to extend the wiki, ad mre examples and clarify the true meaning of scrub, both within and outside of OSM.
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> You understood my reasoning in regard to landuse. The landuse refers to the land the scrub grows upon, and in most cases, as we look at just the English meaning of "uncultivated land", it is suitable in its current state to be used with the examples given in the proposal. If you follow the OSM guidleines, one item, one tagging scheme, in most cases you will have a larger landuse area containing several or even, overlapping areas to detail the vegetation growing upon it. Same as is already common with natural=wood or natural=grass, same as for the less used natural=heath. Same as for landcover which gets some support but is less commonly used in this context and due to it's history a bit controversy. I tried to keep in mind to offer a proposal which is usable for all kinds of users, cultures etc.. in the world and OSM. The majority of the mappers are not academics, neither cartographers, and that is a good thing and one of the reasons if you allow me to say so, Africans feel at home and comfortable to contribute here.
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> In regard to managed and denotation, neither of them would be a "required" tag. I added it as a proposal to add more context in the significance, purpose or use, whatever someone wants to call it, as it was clearly a need within the original proposal. Denotation, I agree seems to be a suitable candidate and gaining support. Of course we need to take care the wiki gets updated and extend denotation to be used also with natural=scrub and add some usable proposed values.
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> Managed is an approved key but poorly used. I mentioned it to promote using more attribution of top level tags to provide detailed information instead of creating or proposing top level keys. Much in the same way to avoid a situation and confusion like with forest and wood. As others have already said, managed describes the process of how the scrub, bush or shrub is managed, including maintained. But if you allow me, personally I prefer to have that discussion in a new and separate thread. A simple yes/no doesn't describe the management process clearly, as not maintaining, let vegetation in the broader context, grow freely is also a management strategy. Maintaining, with or without defining more details, is another management strategy.
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> I would like to clarify that I am not the writer of this proposal or a moderator of this thread or talk group. Just want to help to streamline the discussion. I like to consider everyone's view and address the whole community so we finally can come to a consensus and advise to the writer of the proposal or find someone to extend or clarify our wiki, which can be anyone feeling comfortable with the matter and I would be happy to help with..
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> Greetings, Bert Araali
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> On 14/02/2021 12:17, Vincent van Duijnhoven via Tagging wrote:
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>> Thanks for the summary.
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>> If I understand you correctly, you don't want to use landuse but rather extend the use of natural=scrub? You then want to add an additional tag to natural=scrub like managed or denotation.
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>> I understand your opinion about landuse and I think I agree. The question is then, introduce a new natural value or re-built natural=scrub. One thing though, especially some native English speakers stated is that when they think of scrub, they think of the wild version and not the decorative we are talking about. With "scrubland" in the description of the wiki page, I would also think the same. I also understand though that natual=shrub would potentially conflict with natural=scrub
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>> If natural=scrub is adjusted, the wiki page of natural=scrub would then need to be adjusted to match both scrub on (un)cultivated land and decorative as illustrated in the images in my proposal. The definition then needs to be broadened to give a range of possible definitions (e.g. scrubland, scrub, for decorative purposes etc).
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>> Additionally, I would personally only use denotation and not managed. Currently, you also don't add managed=yes to a natural=tree. I think that if we extend the values of denotation, it can say more about the scrub than managed=yes. Possible values: denotation=urban|wild|decoration.
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>> Greetings,
>> Vincent
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>> 13 feb. 2021 23:19 van >> bert.araali.afritastic at gmail.com>> :
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>>> SUMMARY:
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>>> Question 1: consensus on no support creating another top level key:value. landuse:shrub / landuse:bush. Landcover and landform surely not supported.
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>>> Question 2: natural=scrub should be used, mapped as an area on or within an area with a defined landuse. managed=* is optional, denotation as with trees to further define it's significance.. Actions: extend the related wiki pages with description of what is cultivated and uncultivated LAND and how to map and tag + what is to be used to map and tag cultivated and/or managed VEGETATION (regardless if it is located on cultivated or uncultivated land).
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>>> Question 3: barrier=hedge should not be used in these cases. It should be used when the vegetation is predominately linear AND has either a primary purpose or use as barrier, or boundary or border. Hedges covers both managed / maintained as unmaintained / not managed. ("cultivated" has never been used as a term with hedges as far as I can recall).
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