[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - landuse bush

Vincent van Duijnhoven vincenttemp at vanduijnhoven.xyz
Sun Feb 14 18:53:40 UTC 2021


Indeed. The example values were more to illustrate my point. But just like wetland=* and grassland=*, scrub=* can be used to further define the type of scrub(land). 

For example, this wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrubland lists several types of scrub. One of them would be scrub=decoration or so to be used on the shrub I am trying to find a tag for. The rest of the wilder bushed can then for example be defined with the types listed in the wiki.

Greetings,
Vincent

14 feb. 2021 19:25 van bert.araali.afritastic at gmail.com:

>
> Would that be a wise move ? If we introduce        a new scrub key, to be consistent, we will have to do the same        for other vegetation types, grass= wild / mowed, heath = wild        /clipped. I proposed managed (not that much used) and denotation        (widely used) since they are used for similar attributions, more        specifically for trees.  Same as we can use other commonly used        attribution tags like the leaftype for vegetation, even they        could be used on hedge. 
>  Sorry for al the work you have done Vincent, but be sure it is        much appreciated, you started discussion and for sure a        significant improvement on the wiki and tagging consistency. 
>
> Greetings, Bert Araali
>
> On 14/02/2021 20:15, Vincent van      Duijnhoven via Tagging wrote:
>
>> I just had a discussion with Brian on the topic. Is it an        idea to instead of introducing landuse=shrub, extend the        natural=scrub with a new tag scrub=wild|decorative? This better        describes the type of scrub than denotation=* or managed=*.
>>
>> As explained by Bert Araali, natural=scrub is currently        already used to tag the kind of decorative scrub as illustrated        in my proposal for landuse=shrub. By adding a new tag to        natural=scrub, all that work does not need to be changed. An        advantage is that already gets rendered on carto. The wiki then        needs to be changed to address this broader definition of scrub        and that natural=scrub can be further defined with        scrub=wild|decorative.
>>
>> Any thoughts on this?
>>
>> Greetings,
>> Vincent
>>
>>
>>
>> 14 feb. 2021 14:06 van >> bert.araali.afritastic at gmail.com>> :
>>
>>>
>>> Hi Vincent,
>>>
>>> I actually            didn't mean an extension of the use of natural=scrub.  In            many areas across the world it is already used in the same            context. For instance here in Africa we have a lot of bushes            planted in parks, golf cources, urban areas etc...  They are            mostly all tagged as natural=scrub and is a tagging habbit            grown  In most cases they are managed through clipping,            weeding etc... although, due to the fact we don't do it that            often, they might look "unmanaged".
>>>  >>> If you mean with native english speakers UK and US,          they don't relate the term scrub to shrub and bushes in built          up areas, your reasoning might be correct. Other "native"          English speaking areas, like here in Africa and Australia have          another interpretation of the term "bush" in daily use. As we          try to find a global consensus, the term scrub seems to cover          the targeted vegetation type.>>> Using the term "uncultivated land" in it's definition is          not wrong but needs to be clarified, to my interpretation it          refers to the land the vegetation grows upon. Of course I          agree completely that we need to extend the wiki, ad mre          examples and clarify the true meaning of scrub, both within          and outside of OSM.
>>> You understood my reasoning in regard to landuse. The          landuse refers to the land the scrub grows upon, and in most          cases, as we look at just the English meaning of "uncultivated          land", it is suitable in its current state to be used with the          examples given in the proposal.  If you follow the OSM          guidleines, one item, one tagging scheme, in most cases you          will have a larger landuse area containing several or even,          overlapping areas to detail the vegetation growing upon it.          Same as is already common with natural=wood or natural=grass,          same as for the less used natural=heath. Same as for landcover          which gets some support but is less commonly used in this          context and due to it's history a bit controversy. I tried to          keep in mind to offer a proposal which is usable for all kinds          of users, cultures etc.. in the world and OSM. The majority of          the mappers are not academics, neither cartographers, and that          is a good thing and one of the reasons if you allow me to say          so, Africans feel at home and comfortable to contribute here.
>>>
>>> In regard to managed and denotation, neither of them would          be a "required" tag. I added it as a proposal to add more          context in the significance, purpose or use, whatever someone          wants to call it, as it was clearly a need within the original          proposal. Denotation, I agree seems to be a suitable candidate          and gaining support.  Of course we need to take care the wiki          gets updated and extend denotation to be used also with          natural=scrub and add some usable proposed values.
>>>
>>> Managed is an approved key but poorly used. I mentioned it to          promote using more attribution of top level tags to provide          detailed information instead of creating or proposing top          level keys.  Much in the same way to avoid a situation and          confusion like with forest and wood. As others have already          said, managed describes the process of how the scrub, bush or          shrub is managed, including maintained. But if you allow me,          personally I prefer to have that discussion in a new and          separate thread. A simple yes/no doesn't describe the          management process clearly, as not maintaining, let vegetation          in the broader context, grow freely is also a management          strategy. Maintaining, with or without defining more details,          is another management strategy. 
>>>
>>>
>>> I would like to clarify that I am not the writer of this          proposal or a moderator of this thread or talk group. Just          want to help to streamline the discussion. I like to consider          everyone's view and address the whole community so we finally          can come to a consensus and advise to the writer of the          proposal or find someone to extend or clarify our wiki, which          can be anyone feeling comfortable with the matter and I would          be happy to help with..
>>>
>>>
>>> Greetings, Bert Araali
>>>
>>> On 14/02/2021 12:17, Vincent van Duijnhoven via          Tagging wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the summary.
>>>>
>>>> If I understand you correctly, you don't want to            use landuse but rather extend the use of natural=scrub? You            then want to add an additional tag to natural=scrub like            managed or denotation. 
>>>>
>>>> I understand your opinion about landuse and I            think I agree. The question is then, introduce a new natural            value or re-built natural=scrub. One thing though,            especially some native English speakers stated is that when            they think of scrub, they think of the wild version and not            the decorative we are talking about. With "scrubland" in the            description of the wiki page, I would also think the same. I            also understand though that natual=shrub would potentially            conflict with natural=scrub
>>>>
>>>> If natural=scrub is adjusted, the wiki page of            natural=scrub would then need to be adjusted to match both            scrub on (un)cultivated land and decorative as illustrated            in the images in my proposal. The definition then needs to            be broadened to give a range of possible definitions (e.g.            scrubland, scrub, for decorative purposes etc).
>>>>
>>>> Additionally,              I would personally only use denotation and not managed.              Currently, you also don't add managed=yes to a              natural=tree. I think that if we extend the values of              denotation, it can say more about the scrub than              managed=yes. Possible values:              denotation=urban|wild|decoration.
>>>>
>>>> Greetings,
>>>> Vincent
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 13 feb. 2021 23:19 van >>>> bert.araali.afritastic at gmail.com>>>> :
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> SUMMARY:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Question 1: consensus on no support creating another top              level key:value. landuse:shrub / landuse:bush. Landcover              and landform surely not supported.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Question 2: natural=scrub should be used, mapped as an              area on or within an area with a defined landuse.              managed=* is optional, denotation as with trees to further              define it's significance.. Actions: extend the related              wiki pages with description of what is cultivated and              uncultivated LAND and how to map and tag + what is to be              used to map and tag cultivated and/or managed VEGETATION              (regardless if it is located on cultivated or uncultivated              land).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Question 3: barrier=hedge should not be used in these              cases.  It should be used when the vegetation is              predominately linear AND has either a primary purpose or              use as barrier, or boundary or border. Hedges covers both              managed / maintained as unmaintained / not managed.              ("cultivated" has never been used as a term with hedges as              far as I can recall).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>
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