[Tagging] Why do we use British English? (Was: Cartpath RFC)

Graeme Fitzpatrick graemefitz1 at gmail.com
Sun Jan 3 06:20:41 UTC 2021


On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 14:46, Joseph Eisenberg <joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> This is already true for "sidewalks". These are usually called "pavements"
> in England, but since that key would be ambiguous and the term "sidewalk"
> is well-known in many countries, the key in OpenStreetMap is sidewalk=*
>

I call them "footpaths" :-)

Thanks

Graeme

On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 6:50 PM Seth Deegan <jayandseth at gmail.com> wrote:

> About the Australian result, I've communicated and confirmed from
> Australians that "golf cart" is the most popular term via the OSM World
> Discord server
> <https://discord.com/channels/413070382636072960/790139356903505951/795110656595460156>
> .
>
> Also, the Google Trends result has some search biases that I didn't
> account for:
>
>    - Volkswagen Golf car model
>    <https://www.google.com/search?q=golf+car+australia>
>    - Car racing clubs
>
> Corrected search shows an overwhelming usage for golf_cart. I used the
> golf category as well to account for bias:
> https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?cat=261&q=golf%20car,golf%20cart
>
> I'm now starting to lean back to keeping golf_cart.
>
> Don't want to start a second conversation, but why do we use British
> English when we should probably just use the most popular term in general
> globally?
>
> lectrician1 <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Lectrician1>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 7:55 PM Seth Deegan <jayandseth at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Honestly, the more I do research on it the more I get confused.
>>
>> Just from the basic search "golf car vs golf cart"
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=golf+car+vs+golf+cart> I've summarized
>> this information from looking through the results:
>>
>>    - Golf manufacturers in Britain seem to call them golf cars
>>    - Americans call them golf carts
>>    - Americans *do* have "golf cars
>>    <https://www.baby-boomer-retirement.com/2013/08/golf-carts-vs-golf-cars-for-retirees.html>".
>>    They are basically more car-like versions of golf carts, some able to go up
>>    to 50 mph and can have a variety of features.
>>    - Here's a technical analysis <https://golfcarmaven.com/car-or-cart/>
>>    comparing the terms
>>
>> And then what's weirder is the terminology statistics:
>>
>>    - Google Trends
>>    <https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=golf%20car,golf%20cart,club%20car,golf%20buggy> (basically
>>    all 4 terms have an equal share in Australia?!)
>>    - Google Books Ngram Viewer
>>    <https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=golf+cart%2Cgolf+car%2Cclub+car%2Cgolf+buggy&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cgolf%20cart%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cgolf%20car%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cclub%20car%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cgolf%20buggy%3B%2Cc0> (golf
>>    cart wins easily)
>>
>> I'd definitely like to hear some feedback from people from other places
>> around the world, as Joseph asked.
>>
>> lectrician1 <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Lectrician1>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 7:22 PM Joseph Eisenberg <
>> joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm an American, so I've only heard of "golf carts." Can we confirm that
>>> the term "golf car" is widely used in Britain and also in other countries
>>> where British-influenced English is spoken, e.g. India, Australia,
>>> Singapore, New Zealand etc?
>>>
>>> The British dictionaries I can find mainly mention "golf cart" or "golf
>>> buggy", and have no results for "golf car":
>>>
>>> https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/golf-cart?q=golf+cart
>>> https://www.lexico.com/definition/golf_cart
>>> https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/british/golf-cart
>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/golf_cart
>>>
>>> In this British English corporus there is only 1 results for "golf car",
>>> but 11 results for "golf cart", and 2 results for "golf buggy".
>>> https://www.english-corpora.org/bnc/
>>>
>>> It's possible that "golf buggy" is somewhat common in Britain, but "golf
>>> car" seems quite rare.
>>>
>>> -- Joseph Eisenberg
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 4:44 PM Seth Deegan <jayandseth at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Totally agree it's silly. But, standards and uniformity should
>>>> probably be adopted whenever most convenient (now).
>>>>
>>>> The sooner this change is approved:
>>>>
>>>>    - the less features will be tagged with the current golf_cart=* tag
>>>>    - the less issues we'll run into in the future about mappers being
>>>>    confused about why two proposals approved about a year between each other
>>>>    use different terminology
>>>>
>>>> I'm not really sure how to write up a depreciation schedule but what
>>>> you described sounds good to me.
>>>> Could you edit the proposal yourself and add what you described Brian?
>>>>
>>>> *Also lol:*
>>>> [image: image.png]
>>>>
>>>> lectrician1 <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Lectrician1>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 6:21 PM Brian M. Sperlongano <
>>>> zelonewolf at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Personally I think it's pretty silly to have to change the approved
>>>>> key golf_cart to golf_car for the sake of British English, especially since
>>>>> there seemed to be no problem when it was proposed and approved[1] in
>>>>> 2019.  I assume at this point that there are data consumers that use the
>>>>> 80,000 current usages of golf_cart=*.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we must change the key name just for the sake of changing the key
>>>>> name  ::eye roll:: , my hope is that this change would include a
>>>>> deprecation schedule that gives data consumers time to adapt to the new
>>>>> key.  That should include a mechanical edit to dual-tag existing usages, a
>>>>> specified period of time where mappers are instructed to dual-tag with both
>>>>> tags, and a scheduled date in the future on which a second mechanical edit
>>>>> would remove the original tag.  Perhaps 6 months or a year would be a
>>>>> sufficient time window.
>>>>>
>>>>> Or, we could just leave the golf_cart=* tag alone and live with the
>>>>> fact that it isn't the Queen's English.
>>>>>
>>>>> [1]
>>>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Key:golf_cart
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 6:53 PM Seth Deegan <jayandseth at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The golf car path proposal about replacing the current tagging scheme
>>>>>> for mapping golf car paths has been updated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *The changes are:*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    - highway=cart_path -> *highway=golf_car_path*  (Explanation
>>>>>>    <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/golf_car_path#Why_such_a_long_value.3F>)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    - Depreciate the current golf_cart=* access tag and replace with*
>>>>>>    golf_car=** (Explanation
>>>>>>    <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/golf_car_path#golf_cart.3D.2A_-.3E_golf_car.3D.2A>
>>>>>>    )
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Proposal: *
>>>>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/golf_car_path
>>>>>>
>>>>>> lectrician1 <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Lectrician1>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 26, 2020 at 7:21 AM Jez Nicholson <
>>>>>> jez.nicholson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Personally, I need a really strong proposal to convince me to vote
>>>>>>> for a new top-level highway tag. I would want something that describes the
>>>>>>> unique characteristics of the road rather than it being specifically for
>>>>>>> golf carts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For a sub-tag below highway=service I need a less-strong argument.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, 26 Dec 2020, 00:13 Minh Nguyen, <
>>>>>>> minh at nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Vào lúc 18:10 2020-12-23, Minh Nguyen đã viết:
>>>>>>>> > I've left out a lot of details, but hopefully this helps get
>>>>>>>> people up
>>>>>>>> > to speed about why the proposal takes the rare step of
>>>>>>>> introducing a new
>>>>>>>> > highway=* value. There's an interesting tension here between the
>>>>>>>> needs
>>>>>>>> > of editor, renderer, and router developers, but hopefully an
>>>>>>>> amicable
>>>>>>>> > solution is possible.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Aside from the technical considerations, apparently some places in
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> U.S. go to great lengths to make golf carts a first-class mode of
>>>>>>>> transportation. Peachtree City, Georgia, has a citywide network of
>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>> 90 miles of numbered golf cart paths and over 10,000 resident-owned
>>>>>>>> golf
>>>>>>>> carts replete with vehicle registration tags. Like most cycleways
>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>> U.S., the cart paths are multi-use trails that also permit
>>>>>>>> pedestrians
>>>>>>>> and cyclists. [1][2]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Currently, the city's cart paths are all tagged as highway=footway
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> the golf_cart key, but a dedicated highway=* tag would be more
>>>>>>>> accurate.
>>>>>>>> Peachtree City may be an outlier, but there are plenty of other
>>>>>>>> examples
>>>>>>>> of golf cart communities where these paths would be considered
>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>> more than just a feature of the golf course.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [1] https://peachtree-city.org/216/Paths-Golf-Carts
>>>>>>>> [2]
>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peachtree_City,_Georgia#Golf_carts
>>>>>>>> [3] https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/62098675
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> minh at nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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