[Tagging] cycle highways in Belgium (WAS: Feature Proposal - RFC - value 'basic_network' - cycle_network?)

Mon Nov 29 15:08:23 UTC 2021

Hi Seppe,
As everything in OSM, communication happens in an less organized way. I am
a heavy mapper and heavy end-user on a bicycle.
I "learned" OSM by copying from others. And from the very first contact I
used cycle routes and entered/added cycle routes. And I appreciated this
genial distinction between infrastructure mapping and cycle tourist route
mapping. It did not occur to me that other people in OSM might see the OSM
cycling world in a different way.
When the Belgish example turned up in the discussion as an example I
commented of-the-cuff that I saw some problems there. These comments were
not based on any thorough study, though.
I have not (so far) spent any time on how to tag cycle routes, I simply
followed what I thought was the established way. (I looked into the
infrastriction tagging in Italy in detail, as I learned over time the
details of the highway code, as an active cycle tour leader in Italy's FIAB
- Federazione Italiana Ambiente e Bicicletta).

Volker

On Mon, 29 Nov 2021, 15:38 Seppe Santens, <seppe.santens at westtoer.be> wrote:

> Dear Volker,
>
>
>
> Happy to see that you’re looking into the tagging scheme that we used in
> Belgium for mapping cycle highways. There’s a lot more information about
> this tagging scheme on the wiki:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:cycle_network%3DBE-VLG:cycle_highway
> It’s probably best to suggest improvements over there (on the Discussion
> page), as this thread is already very long and it was originally on a
> slightly different topic.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
>
> Seppe
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Van:* Volker Schmidt <voschix at gmail.com>
> *Verzonden:* maandag 29 november 2021 10:23
> *Aan:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <
> tagging at openstreetmap.org>
> *Onderwerp:* Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - value 'basic_network'
> - cycle_network?
>
>
>
> Hmmm.
>
> This tagging has issues, apart from the fact that it proves that my
> assumption that bicycle routes in OSM are touristic, is not valid in
> Belgium. :-(
>
> The tag bicycle:type=utility is used here not in line with the (relatively
> recent) wiki page Bicycle:type
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Abicycle%3Atype>
>
> I don't like the use of network=NCN (nation-wide cycling network) together
> with cycle-network for the *name* of the network.
>
> The key cycle_highway is a very recent new tag, and invites confusion with
> cyclestreet <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cyclestreet> an
> bicycle_road <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:bicycle_road>
>
> The ref F7 is repeated in the name.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 at 23:35, Peter Elderson <pelderson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Our Belgian friends are mapping "Cycle highways" ("Fiets-snelwegen") which
> are being rolled out over the country (of course, they call it a network of
> cycle_highways). Signposting will still take some time to complete; they
> use lifecycle tags to make sure only waymarked sections show up and are
> routed. The routes are chains of ways in route relations, tagged as follows:
>
>
>
> bicycle:type
>
> utility
>
> cycle_highway
>
> yes
>
> cycle_network
>
> BE-VLG:cycle_highway
>
> name
>
> F7 Fietssnelweg Gent - De Pinte
>
> network
>
> ncn
>
> operator
>
> Provincie Oost-Vlaanderen;Provincie West-Vlaanderen
>
> ref
>
> F7
>
> route
>
> bicycle
>
> type
>
> route
>
>
>
> The function/purpose is packed in the tag: cycle_highway=yes
>
> It's used for emphasized rendering and adapted weight for routing.
>
> They show up on waymarkedtrails, as national routes.
>
>
>
> They have no plans to tag all officially destination-signposted ways as
> such, nor to create relations for that purpose.
>
>
>
> Just a frontline story.
>
>
>
> Single comment: the cycle_network=* tag is not adding much here!
>
>
> Peter Elderson
>
>
>
>
>
> Op zo 28 nov. 2021 om 22:29 schreef Sebastian Gürtler <
> sebastian.guertler at gmx.de>:
>
>
> Am 28.11.21 um 21:28 schrieb Peter Elderson:
> > I am not a fan of the word basic in key or value. It suggests that
> > other routes are built on top of these routes, which in general is not
> > the case.
> I don't know the situation in whole Germany but in the regions I know I
> would say in general it is really the case but there are some exceptions
> (as far as I know outdated routes, I haven't seen newly designed routes
> that don't follow the new scheme).
> > Germany may have a business rule for cycling that all cycling routes
> > use these basic routes, but in fact they don't. In my experience with
> > this kind of rule, it never works out completely, and business rules
> > change. If any country can do it, it's Germany, but even then it's a
> > localised exception, it works only for cycling in the parts of Germany
> > that implemented the integrated guideposts completely and removed
> > other types of guideposts.
>
> That's an important fact that the reality has different networks or at
> least one quite well defined network and more or less independent
> cycling routes in parallel.
>
> So a complete generalized tagging wouldn't be able to reflect the actual
> situation. Finally I think the most suitable solution for my intention
> to map the emerging network may really be describing just that there is
> a cycle network with special features, find a name which has a broad
> consensus and put it as value for cycle_network=DE:xyz. As stated by
> Steve, this could be combined with other network identifiers if
> necessary in special cases. This could be discussed in the German forum,
> and it wouldn't interfere with tagging in other regions.
>
> Sebastian
>
>
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