[Tagging] Context of tagging

Tracy DuVall tracy.duvall at yahoo.com
Sun Oct 17 19:26:30 UTC 2021 



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On Sunday, October 17, 2021, 12:51 PM, tagging-request at openstreetmap.org <tagging-request at openstreetmap.org> wrote:

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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: opening_hours and related tags: hours past 24:00 (Yves)
  2. Re: opening_hours and related tags: hours past 24:00
      (Mateusz Konieczny)
  3. Re: opening_hours and related tags: hours past 24:00
      (Mateusz Konieczny)
  4. Re: opening_hours and related tags: hours past 24:00 (Yves)
  5. Re: opening_hours and related tags: hours past 24:00
      (Mateusz Konieczny)


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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 18:11:47 +0200
From: Yves <ycai at mailbox.org>
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
    <tagging at openstreetmap.org>,  Tod Fitch <tod at fitchfamily.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] opening_hours and related tags: hours past
    24:00
Message-ID: <0A4E6FEA-3BB8-4C66-B9F2-F39E97E72C84 at mailbox.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

You can't expect a few of the few mappers interested in opening hours not to map what's on the sign if it's 20:00-05:00. Especially those training AI bots. 
I've never written a parser myself, but is it so hard to accommodate both ways?
Regards,
Yves 

Le 17 octobre 2021 17:28:48 GMT+02:00, Tod Fitch <tod at fitchfamily.org> a ?crit?:
>
>
>> On Oct 17, 2021, at 7:56 AM, Snusmumriken <snusmumriken.mapper at runbox.com> wrote:
>> 
>> On Sun, 2021-10-17 at 12:25 +0200, Simon Poole wrote:
>>> 
>>> Am 17.10.2021 um 08:13 schrieb Snusmumriken:
>>>> ...
>>>> Could you explain why a mapper should do an abstraction from what
>>>> is
>>>> posted on a sign? Given that a value like Fr-Sa 21:00-05:00 is
>>>> without
>>>> ambiguity.
>>>> 
>>> Because the contents of an opening hours tag are based on a highly
>>> formalized grammar, just adding an extra day with different hours
>>> already requires you to know that grammar. It could be argued that
>>> that
>>> is the case even for your super simple example, for example that
>>> leading
>>> zeros are in principle required in times, that the weekday
>>> identifiers
>>> are two letter English abbreviations and so on. But as I already
>>> pointed
>>> out you are mixing up internal representation with data entry and
>>> display.
>> 
>> Could I ask, do you consider Fr-Sa 21:00-05:00 to be ambiguous? If not,
>> I haven't really heard (or perhaps understood) any argument why one
>> should deviate from what's on a posted sign and arguably stands for the
>> Ground Truth. Sure one could have an internal representation that's
>> different from the Ground Truth but I think there has to be a really
>> strong rational for doing that. And so far I haven't heard any.
>> 
>You quoted the strong rational: The value of the opening hours tag has a formal grammar. Formal grammar is important for machine interpretation of the value.
>
>
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 18:42:57 +0200 (CEST)
From: Mateusz Konieczny <matkoniecz at tutanota.com>
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
    <tagging at openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] opening_hours and related tags: hours past
    24:00
Message-ID: <MmE7cKb--3-2 at tutanota.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"


Oct 17, 2021, 17:28 by tod at fitchfamily.org:

> You quoted the strong rational: The value of the opening hours tag has a formal grammar. Formal grammar is important for machine interpretation of the value.
>
Unless I am misinterpreting - this formal grammar allows both variants.

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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 18:52:13 +0200 (CEST)
From: Mateusz Konieczny <matkoniecz at tutanota.com>
To: Yves via Tagging <tagging at openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] opening_hours and related tags: hours past
    24:00
Message-ID: <MmE9k7H--3-2 at tutanota.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"




Oct 17, 2021, 18:11 by tagging at openstreetmap.org:

> You can't expect a few of the few mappers interested in opening hours not to map what's on the sign if it's 20:00-05:00. Especially those training AI bots. 
> I've never written a parser myself, but is it so hard to accommodate both ways?
> Regards,
> Yves 
>
1) noone will be trying to train some pattern-recognition (often called AI buzzword),
that is a terrible choice where parsers work well
2) haphazard extensions would be a bad idea as it is easy to get actual incompatibity
between parsers in various editors/data consumers and end with quagmire
impossible to resolve
3) unless I am wrong (if I am please let me know) this variant is also allowed
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 19:17:21 +0200
From: Yves <ycai at mailbox.org>
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
    <tagging at openstreetmap.org>,  Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging
    <tagging at openstreetmap.org>, Yves via Tagging
    <tagging at openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] opening_hours and related tags: hours past
    24:00
Message-ID: <F9FA01DD-D948-4D78-AEE1-64579EC08FF0 at mailbox.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Sorry, I was referring to a recent discussion about mapping opening hours from photos.
I did not thought about parsing them yet, you have just opened the pandora box ;-)
Regards,
Yves 

Le 17 octobre 2021 18:52:13 GMT+02:00, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <tagging at openstreetmap.org> a ?crit?:
>
>
>
>Oct 17, 2021, 18:11 by tagging at openstreetmap.org:
>
>> You can't expect a few of the few mappers interested in opening hours not to map what's on the sign if it's 20:00-05:00. Especially those training AI bots. 
>> I've never written a parser myself, but is it so hard to accommodate both ways?
>> Regards,
>> Yves 
>>
>1) noone will be trying to train some pattern-recognition (often called AI buzzword),
>that is a terrible choice where parsers work well
>2) haphazard extensions would be a bad idea as it is easy to get actual incompatibity
>between parsers in various editors/data consumers and end with quagmire
>impossible to resolve
>3) unless I am wrong (if I am please let me know) this variant is also allowed
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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 19:41:05 +0200 (CEST)
From: Mateusz Konieczny <matkoniecz at tutanota.com>
Cc: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
    <tagging at openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] opening_hours and related tags: hours past
    24:00
Message-ID: <MmEKw7Q--3-2 at tutanota.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

In such system converting from 20:00-2:00 to? either
20:00-02:00 or 20:00-26:00 is likely the easiest step :)


Oct 17, 2021, 19:17 by ycai at mailbox.org:

> Sorry, I was referring to a recent discussion about mapping opening hours from photos.
> I did not thought about parsing them yet, you have just opened the pandora box ;-)
> Regards,
> Yves 
>
> Le 17 octobre 2021 18:52:13 GMT+02:00, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <tagging at openstreetmap.org> a ?crit?:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Oct 17, 2021, 18:11 by tagging at openstreetmap.org:
>>
>>> You can't expect a few of the few mappers interested in opening hours not to map what's on the sign if it's 20:00-05:00. Especially those training AI bots. 
>>> I've never written a parser myself, but is it so hard to accommodate both ways?
>>> Regards,
>>> Yves 
>>>
>> 1) noone will be trying to train some pattern-recognition (often called AI buzzword),
>> that is a terrible choice where parsers work well
>> 2) haphazard extensions would be a bad idea as it is easy to get actual incompatibity
>> between parsers in various editors/data consumers and end with quagmire
>> impossible to resolve
>> 3) unless I am wrong (if I am please let me know) this variant is also allowed
>>

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