[Tagging] River crossing grade

[Philip Barnes]

In terms of boat, shouldn't we just use the established tag of ferry?

Phil (trigpoint)

On Thursday, 27 January 2022, Zeke Farwell wrote:
> Several definitions of the English word "ford":
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ford
> https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ford
> https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/ford
> 
> Several mention "wading".  One mentions "not using a boat".  None mention
> stepping over, jumping over, stepping stones, or dry streambeds.  Yes OSM
> tags do diverge from English word meanings, but if we can avoid it wouldn't
> that be preferable?  ford=stepping_stones has around 8000 uses and
> thankfully ford=boat has only around 50.  Doesn't seem too late to change
> these.
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/ford#values
> 
> My suggestion would be to introduce a new tag *water_crossing=yes* for a
> generic water crossing.  This could be used for any water crossing where
> the mapper does not know if it is a ford, a usually dry streambed, small
> enough to step across on stones, or some other kind of crossing.  This key
> could then have more specific values to add more detail:
> 
> water_crossing=ford
> water_crossing=stepping_stones
> water_crossing=step_over
> water_crossing=dry
> water_crossing=boat
> 
> Since ford=yes has been (mis)used so heavily to mean any generic water
> crossing, we can say that ford=yes has the same meaning as
> water_crossing=yes.  Perhaps even with this more detailed scheme there is
> still some desire to tag how wet you would get at a water_crossing=ford,
> but it would be limited to crossings where you *are* going to get wet.
> 
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 10:42 AM Sinus Pi <sinus+osmtag at sinpi.net> wrote:
> 
> > > Stepping stones are not a bridge
> >
> > So when does a structure built to facilitate dry-foot crossing become a
> > bridge? I'm sure you'll agree that a plank thrown over a stream is a
> > bridge. A handful of sticks and logs thrown into the stream, like a beaver
> > dam, surely comprises a makeshift bridge, does it not?
> >
> > On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 at 16:29, Philip Barnes <phil at trigpoint.me.uk> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thursday, 27 January 2022, Sinus Pi wrote:
> >> > How about a different approach to the stepping stones...
> >> >
> >> > What do you call a (usually, but not always) man-made structure that
> >> allows
> >> > you to cross a waterway dry-footed? A bridge.
> >> > Is a plank thrown over a stream a bridge? Likely.
> >> > Is a log fallen over the river, now commonly used as a crossing, a
> >> bridge?
> >> > Kind of.
> >> > Is a stone chucked into the river a bridge? Well... why not?
> >> >
> >> > Hence: why not bridge=stepping_stones?
> >> > And leave ford=* for where the waterway cannot (usually) be crossed
> >> without
> >> > getting your feet wet?
> >>
> >> Stepping stones are not a bridge, any more than they are a ford, although
> >> that has been in use a long time.
> >>
> >> Why not highway=stepping stones, in the same way we have highway=steps.
> >>
> >> Both can only exist on a foot only way.
> >>
> >> In the case of stepping stones, they are often alongside an actual ford
> >> for example https://www.geograph.org/photo/14321
> >>
> >> Phil (trigpoint)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 at 14:43, Peter Elderson <pelderson at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > I don't see much added value in this proposal.
> >> > > Boat is not applicable (not a ford), use ferry for that: established
> >> > > tagging.
> >> > > Swimming, not a ford.
> >> > > Stepping stones, I think then it's still a ford; established tagging.
> >> > > Add depth, width as needed. An estimate will suffice. Dry=0 cm,
> >> soles=5
> >> > > cm, ankle=10 cm, knee=0,5 m, wade=1 m.
> >> > > Intermittent, tidal: there is tagging for that.
> >> > > Construction key could help if you want to tag an artificial ford.
> >> > >
> >> > > Peter Elderson
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Op wo 26 jan. 2022 om 11:59 schreef Andrew Harvey <
> >> > > andrew.harvey4 at gmail.com>:
> >> > >
> >> > >> I couldn't see anything on the wiki about river crossings grade so I
> >> > >> started drafting a proposal
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Pedestrian_river_crossing
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Feedback or comments or help on it is most welcome.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> # Rational
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Particularly on hiking trails, the intersection of a highway=footway
> >> or
> >> > >> highway=path and a waterway=* can be defined as either:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> - A bridge bridge=yes which allows you to walk over the watercourse.
> >> > >> - A culvert tunnel=culvert which takes the water through a tunnel
> >> > >> underneath the walking path.
> >> > >> - Stepping stones ford=stepping_stones which allow you to walk
> >> through
> >> > >> the watercourse without usually getting wet (unless the water level
> >> is
> >> > >> higher than the stepping stones, this tag doesn't imply you'll
> >> always be
> >> > >> able to get across)
> >> > >> - A generic stream/river crossing ford=yes where your path passes
> >> through
> >> > >> the watercourse.
> >> > >> In the last case of ford=yes it can be helpful to describe the usual
> >> > >> condition of that stream/river crossing to help give consumers an
> >> idea of
> >> > >> what they can generally expect.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Mindful that conditions can change depending on upstream rainfall,
> >> or it
> >> > >> could vary seasonally, but for places where it's usually consistent,
> >> this
> >> > >> proposal proposes tagging it.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> # Proposed Tagging
> >> > >>
> >> > >> 0. creek/stream crossing where generally the creekbed is dry and you
> >> > >> won't get wet.
> >> > >> 1: creek/stream crossing where generally the water level is so low
> >> that
> >> > >> you won't have water ingress in your shoes
> >> > >> 2: creek/stream crossing where your body will stay dry but you'll
> >> want to
> >> > >> take your shoes off if you prefer to keep them dry
> >> > >> 3: river crossing where your body will get wet, may have a rope to
> >> help
> >> > >> you cross, but you can wade through the water and won't usually need
> >> to swim
> >> > >> 4: river crossing where you'll need to swim across
> >> > >>
> >> > >> _______________________________________________
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> >> > >>
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> >> >
> >>
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