[talk-au] JOSM Scanaerial plugin on NSW LPI layers

Warin 61sundowner at gmail.com
Mon Jan 25 05:01:07 UTC 2016

On 25/01/2016 3:44 PM, Warin wrote:
> Well I have roughly follow this procedure on;
> for my previously entered 'Putty State Forest' relation 5806844
> and newly entered 'Wollemi National Park' relation 5901253
> These are large! ..
> My past clickathon for the Putty state forest was some 800 nodes ... 
> the data there is now well over the 2,000 mark! Much more detail and 
> accuracy - at some data cost.
> I got a .kml file from the website direct, thus avoiding the conversion.
> BUT the JOSM simplification did not reduce the number of nodes! I will 
> have to do some thinking on it and play with it.

Arr found the problem.
JOSM simplify will not touch any node with an elevation. The .klm files 
all have elevations (0!) .. removing the elevation tag on the nodes is easy
find type=node .. and then delete the elevation tag .. does it for all 
of them.
> Maybe I'll try just a section .. say way 393301771 and see if I can 
> reduce its size.
> On 24/01/2016 4:46 PM, Nev Wedding wrote:
>> Your work flow using the geometries has worked very well for me with 
>> the LPI data and the last bit regarding the merging each item 
>> separately into the existing OSM data seems prudent and makes for 
>> easier management of the data.
>> Much appreciated
>> Nev
>>> On 24 Jan 2016, at 9:11 AM, Andrew Davidson <u887 at internode.on.net> 
>>> wrote:
>>> The work flow that JOSM wants you to use is to have your new data in 
>>> one layer and the existing OSM data in another and to "merge 
>>> selection" on individual items.  I'm assuming this is to slow down 
>>> people just dump-and-running. I found it useful to use the merge 
>>> approach as you can delete the ways from the kml layer as you do 
>>> each one and it lets you check that you've processed each way.
>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>     From:
>>>     "Nev Wedding" <nwastra at gmail.com <mailto:nwastra at gmail.com>>
>>>     To:
>>>     "OSM Australian Talk List" <Talk-au at openstreetmap.org
>>>     <mailto:Talk-au at openstreetmap.org>>
>>>     Cc:
>>>     Sent:
>>>     Sat, 23 Jan 2016 12:42:53 +1000
>>>     Subject:
>>>     Re: [talk-au] JOSM Scanaerial plugin on NSW LPI layers
>>>     (corrected message….opening the .kml file
>>>     I have the .kml file and the downloaded osm data as seperate
>>>     layers and want to upload the .kml layers which contains all the
>>>     updated info)
>>>     I have followed this process for Kooyong State Conservation Area
>>>     which has gone well after opening the .kml file and have
>>>     simplified and added all the tags,
>>>     …but on trying to upload the final boundary I get this ominous
>>>     message
>>>>>>     You are about to upload data from the layer 'Kooyong.kml'.
>>>     Sending data from this layer is *strongly discouraged*. If you
>>>     continue,
>>>     it may require you subsequently have to revert your changes, or
>>>     force other contributors to.
>>>     Are you sure you want to continue?
>>>     I assume the warning is to dissuade mappers from careless import
>>>     of large uncorrected datasets.?
>>>     Sooo…, am I ok to continue or is there another reason?  ..I am
>>>     on-hold here until I see a reply
>>>     Nev
>>>         On 22 Jan 2016, at 11:36 PM, Andrew Davidson
>>>         <u887 at internode.on.net> wrote:
>>>         You can extract the geometries from the database directly,
>>>         you don't have to scan them. I tried this on three park
>>>         areas to see how much work was involved. The recipe I
>>>         followed was:
>>>         1. Use the query tool to find out how many objects have the
>>>         name that you are looking for. You do this with:
>>>         http://maps.six.nsw.gov.au/arcgis/rest/services/public/NSW_Administrative_Boundaries/MapServer/6/query
>>>         with the return format set to html. Names must be in upper
>>>         case and you need to see what object ids are returned. For
>>>         example if you search for Yanununbeyan with:
>>>         http://maps.six.nsw.gov.au/arcgis/rest/services/public/NSW_Administrative_Boundaries/MapServer/6/query?text=YANUNUNBEYAN&geometry=&geometryType=esriGeometryEnvelope&inSR=&spatialRel=esriSpatialRelIntersects&relationParam=&objectIds=&where=&time=&returnCountOnly=false&returnIdsOnly=false&returnGeometry=true&maxAllowableOffset=&outSR=&outFields=&f=html
>>>         You get three different ids (198,208,1131) because there is
>>>         a Yanununbeyan State Conservation Area, Yanununbeyan Nature
>>>         Reserve, and Yanununbeyan National Park. All of which need
>>>         to be tagged differently. Follow the object links to find
>>>         out what type of area they are.
>>>         2. Having found the object id you need you get the geometry
>>>         by using the query tool and setting the object id, setting
>>>         the output spatial reference to 4326 (WGS84), and changing
>>>         the output format to JSON.
>>>         3. Save the resulting page, say output.json
>>>         4. Use ogr2ogr from GDAL to convert the output into
>>>         something JOSM can read:
>>>         ogr2ogr -f “KML" output.json output.kml
>> other way around works for me …  ogr2ogr -f “KML” output.ml 
>> output.son on OS X
>>>         5. If you have the opendata plugin installed you can open
>>>         output.kml in JOSM.
>>>         6. Use the simplify way option in JOSM as there are far too
>>>         many points in the resulting kml. I personally thought that
>>>         the default 3m looks OK.
>>>         7. Tag the ways with an appropriate source:geometry and add
>>>         a note to the effect that the way has been simplified using
>>>         a max error criterion set to whatever you used.
>>>         8. Now comes the difficult and time consuming bit. You have
>>>         to cut up and conflate the new boundaries with the existing
>>>         data as you merge each new way from the layer you opened the
>>>         kml in to the layer the osm data is in. This is the step
>>>         where you could really make a mess.
>>>         I found while doing the few test cases that I had to:
>>>         - Make sure that common boundaries use only one way (which
>>>         means that the more parks, state forests, admin areas, etc
>>>         that share ways the more time consuming it gets)
>>>         - Make judgement calls about if you should use the new
>>>         boundary or keep the existing way where the boundary is
>>>         something physical on the ground like a river bank or
>>>         coastline. This is why I tagged the new ways with
>>>         source:geometry so other mappers can see where they came from.
>>>         - If there are already ways in place, using the replace
>>>         geometry function of the utils2 plugin to try and preserve
>>>         history.
>>>         The cases I tried as a test were:
>>>         South East Forest National Park:
>>>         https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/5853354
>>>         Murramarang National Park:
>>>         https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/5858067
>>>         Clyde River National Park:
>>>         https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/5857616
>>>         The South East Forest case was a multi-hour mapping marathon
>>>         as the park has a lot of separate sections and shares many
>>>         boundaries with neighbouring state forests and parks. The
>>>         other two were much simpler but Murramarang need more time
>>>         than Clyde River as it has more sections and shares a lot of
>>>         common ways with the coast and various rivers.
>>>         As to the import question it seems to me that there is a
>>>         tacit agreement that tracing the boundaries one at a time is
>>>         acceptable (not sure what the rest of OSM would think about
>>>         this). Given that the biggest problem with an import would
>>>         be conflating the data with the existing, provided that
>>>         we're carefully hand-crafting each park I think we're OK.
>>>         Does anyone have a differing opinion?
>>>         On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 13:44:12 +1000
>>>         Nev Wedding <nwastra at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>             Should the JOSM Scanaerial plugin be able to scan the
>>>             LPI NSW
>>>             Administrative Boundaries NPWS Reserve WMS layer and
>>>             others. I would
>>>             like to zoom in to a section and use the plugin as an
>>>             initial pass
>>>             instead of manually mouse clicking around the long and
>>>             winding
>>>             boundary and then refine the result before tagging and
>>>             uploading.
>>>             https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Plugins/Scanaerial
>>>             I am using a mac OS X and there are no instructions for
>>>             that install
>>>             so I may not have it set up correctly yet, so first up
>>>             before
>>>             proceeding further, I would like to know if it will help
>>>             anyway.
>>>             I am unfamiliar with tracing shapes other than tediously
>>>             wandering
>>>             around the boundaries one click at a time.
>>>             I played around with Gimp and Inkscape but found that to
>>>             be quite a
>>>             task too and wasn’t sure if I could use the output in
>>>             Josm in anyway.
>>>             How do you manage such tasks? Are their special mouse
>>>             tools available?
>>>             Is what I am trying to do essentially considered to be
>>>             part of an
>>>             import and/or the current LPI layers unsuitable for the
>>>             tracing
>>>             process.
>>>             Some links to where to find more info on this topic would be
>>>             appreciated. _______________________________________________
>>>             Talk-au mailing list
>>>             Talk-au at openstreetmap.org
>>>             https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>>>         -- 
>>>         Andrew Davidson <u887 at internode.on.net>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Talk-au mailing list
>> Talk-au at openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

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