[talk-au] Practicality of mapping high-speed motor-traffic routes as cycle routes

Fri Apr 17 23:02:30 UTC 2020

Hi, thanks for the Strava point. A subset indeed but a substantial use.

I agree with Andrew that tagging family friendly routing is not something for the map but for a routing engine.

Maybe there is a tag combination similar to discouraged and surface quality to indicate the proximity to high speed traffic. But then again as Andrew said the highway/motorway tagging dies indicate that already.

On 13 April 2020 9:43:54 pm AEST, Little Maps <mapslittle at gmail.com> wrote:
>Hi everyone, I’m very new to OSM so can’t comment on the technicalities
>but to add some data to the question of frequency of usage, the Strava
>heat map shows that the M1 and M2 are among the most frequently ridden
>roads in Sydney, by those cyclists who log their tracks in Strava. A
>biased subset of cyclists to be sure, but the heat map does provide
>unambiguous data on usage and the motorways definitely get used a lot.
>See here... (you have to log in to Strava to see closeup images).
>
>https://www.strava.com/heatmap#11.94/151.13897/-33.87583/hot/ride
>
>Best wishes Ian
>
>
>
>> On 13 Apr 2020, at 9:07 pm, Warin <61sundowner at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I have bicycled on the M2. I much prefer it the the alternative that
>has a lot of up and down, dangerous cross streets where some drivers
>assume right of way over bicycles and a less direct route. There are
>people who commute to and from work on it, if there were a convenient
>safer route they would use that instead. 
>> 
>> 
>> On 13/4/20 8:01 pm, Andrew Harvey wrote:
>>> I think it's a fair argument to say it's not an actual route (but
>still designated bicycle infrastructure since it's signposted), I can
>see arguments both ways. 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 19:27, Dongchen Yue <yuedongchenyy at gmail.com>
>wrote:
>>>> It’s certainly true that some people rely on motorway routes (I
>agree that the solution for family-friendly routes would be a different
>renderer, until conditions change in Australia). However, regarding the
>bike symbol on the M2 on the Mapillary example, it’s designed to be a
>sign of caution instead of a route guide
>(https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/business-industry/partners-and-suppliers/lgr/cycling-aspects-of-austroads-guides.pdf).
>> 
>> The document is 177 pages long... which page? 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Some bicycle signs are to caution motor vehicle operators as to the
>presence of bicycles, not to caution the bicycle rider.
>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Am 13.04.2020 um 7:21 PM schrieb Andrew Harvey
><andrew.harvey4 at gmail.com>:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Example of a dedicated bicycle crossing on a motorway entry ramp
>on the M2 in Sydney
>https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/3HCnt9rSnC2Z9OLn0GSslA and on the M7
>in Sydney https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/JGrFtWbs5DYbMywYpVetoA.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The M7 Shared Path is is a completely different thing, it's a
>shared path and off road, but as you can see above on the M7 motorway
>itself there is clearly dedicated bicycle signage and infrastructure.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Who says it's not recommended to cycle on the motorway? I've never
>seen a sign to say this. Whether it's common or not is irrelevant we
>mostly map the infrastructure on the ground not the traffic level of
>the road. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 19:11, Dongchen Yue
><yuedongchenyy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> The most noticeable example in Sydney would be the M7 Shared Path
>(https://www.westlinkm7.com.au/about/shared-path), which is a ~40km
>uninterrupted bi-directional path alongside the M7 Motorway with
>normally (though obviously not currently) very high usage for
>recreational cycling. However, although cycling on the motorway
>shoulders is neither recommended nor common, it’s been mapped on OSM as
>the cycle route „M7s"
>(https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-33.83065/150.85767&layers=C)
>along with the „M7 Cycleway“ route.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Am 13.04.2020 um 6:52 PM schrieb Ewen Hill
><ewen.hill at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi Dongchen,
>>>>>>>    Can you provide a couple of examples please so we can review
>and discuss them. There may be good reasons (the red carpet Gardiners
>Creek cycle path in Melbourne hangs under the freeway might appear
>incorrect but is not). 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  Ewen
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 18:20, Dongchen Yue
><yuedongchenyy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I’ve noticed many motorway shoulders in Australia (especially
>in Sydney) being mapped as cycle routes on OSM. Although this seems to
>be a common approach for motorways/other high-speed roads in Australia
>of which cycling is allowed on, I can hardly imagine it to be of any
>practical use (i.e. providing convenient and safe connections for
>people cycling).
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Foremostly, this mapping approach defies the general purpose of
>cycle routes (both from an engineering perspective and the official OSM
>Wiki), that is, guiding people onto safe & convenient ways. Although
>cycling on most motorway shoulders in Australia is technically
>permitted and commonly done by the very few “strong and fearless”
>people (only ~1%, as indicated in past transport research), it’s both
>subjectively and statically quite unsafe, which gives no use to most
>people when rendered on tiles such as OpenCycleMap.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Also, these mapped motorway/high-speed road routes aren’t
>officially endorsed routes whatsoever, and are always referred to as
>separate pieces of infrastructure (e.g. “… cycleway”) by cycle-lobbying
>groups.
>>>>>>>> Afterall, these “routes” probably shouldn’t be mapped at all,
>since they aren’t much use to most people; tagging them with ‘cycling’:
>‘designated’ and ‘cycleway’: ‘shoulder’ would be sufficient enough.
>What do you think of this solution?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Thanks in advance,
>>>>>>>> Dongchen Yue
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Talk-au mailing list
>>>>>>>> Talk-au at openstreetmap.org
>>>>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> Warm Regards
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ewen Hill
>>>>>>> Internet Development Australia
>>>>>> 
>> 
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