[talk-au] Practicality of mapping high-speed motor-traffic routes as cycle routes

Little Maps mapslittle at gmail.com
Mon Apr 13 11:43:54 UTC 2020


Hi everyone, I’m very new to OSM so can’t comment on the technicalities but to add some data to the question of frequency of usage, the Strava heat map shows that the M1 and M2 are among the most frequently ridden roads in Sydney, by those cyclists who log their tracks in Strava. A biased subset of cyclists to be sure, but the heat map does provide unambiguous data on usage and the motorways definitely get used a lot. See here... (you have to log in to Strava to see closeup images).

https://www.strava.com/heatmap#11.94/151.13897/-33.87583/hot/ride

Best wishes Ian



> On 13 Apr 2020, at 9:07 pm, Warin <61sundowner at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> I have bicycled on the M2. I much prefer it the the alternative that has a lot of up and down, dangerous cross streets where some drivers assume right of way over bicycles and a less direct route. There are people who commute to and from work on it, if there were a convenient safer route they would use that instead. 
> 
> 
> On 13/4/20 8:01 pm, Andrew Harvey wrote:
>> I think it's a fair argument to say it's not an actual route (but still designated bicycle infrastructure since it's signposted), I can see arguments both ways. 
>> 
>> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 19:27, Dongchen Yue <yuedongchenyy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> It’s certainly true that some people rely on motorway routes (I agree that the solution for family-friendly routes would be a different renderer, until conditions change in Australia). However, regarding the bike symbol on the M2 on the Mapillary example, it’s designed to be a sign of caution instead of a route guide (https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/business-industry/partners-and-suppliers/lgr/cycling-aspects-of-austroads-guides.pdf).
> 
> The document is 177 pages long... which page? 
> 
> 
> 
> Some bicycle signs are to caution motor vehicle operators as to the presence of bicycles, not to caution the bicycle rider.
> 
>>> 
>>>> Am 13.04.2020 um 7:21 PM schrieb Andrew Harvey <andrew.harvey4 at gmail.com>:
>>>> 
>>>> Example of a dedicated bicycle crossing on a motorway entry ramp on the M2 in Sydney https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/3HCnt9rSnC2Z9OLn0GSslA and on the M7 in Sydney https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/JGrFtWbs5DYbMywYpVetoA.
>>>> 
>>>> The M7 Shared Path is is a completely different thing, it's a shared path and off road, but as you can see above on the M7 motorway itself there is clearly dedicated bicycle signage and infrastructure.
>>>> 
>>>> Who says it's not recommended to cycle on the motorway? I've never seen a sign to say this. Whether it's common or not is irrelevant we mostly map the infrastructure on the ground not the traffic level of the road. 
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 19:11, Dongchen Yue <yuedongchenyy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> The most noticeable example in Sydney would be the M7 Shared Path (https://www.westlinkm7.com.au/about/shared-path), which is a ~40km uninterrupted bi-directional path alongside the M7 Motorway with normally (though obviously not currently) very high usage for recreational cycling. However, although cycling on the motorway shoulders is neither recommended nor common, it’s been mapped on OSM as the cycle route „M7s" (https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-33.83065/150.85767&layers=C) along with the „M7 Cycleway“ route.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Am 13.04.2020 um 6:52 PM schrieb Ewen Hill <ewen.hill at gmail.com>:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Dongchen,
>>>>>>    Can you provide a couple of examples please so we can review and discuss them. There may be good reasons (the red carpet Gardiners Creek cycle path in Melbourne hangs under the freeway might appear incorrect but is not). 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>  Ewen
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 18:20, Dongchen Yue <yuedongchenyy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I’ve noticed many motorway shoulders in Australia (especially in Sydney) being mapped as cycle routes on OSM. Although this seems to be a common approach for motorways/other high-speed roads in Australia of which cycling is allowed on, I can hardly imagine it to be of any practical use (i.e. providing convenient and safe connections for people cycling).
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Foremostly, this mapping approach defies the general purpose of cycle routes (both from an engineering perspective and the official OSM Wiki), that is, guiding people onto safe & convenient ways. Although cycling on most motorway shoulders in Australia is technically permitted and commonly done by the very few “strong and fearless” people (only ~1%, as indicated in past transport research), it’s both subjectively and statically quite unsafe, which gives no use to most people when rendered on tiles such as OpenCycleMap.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Also, these mapped motorway/high-speed road routes aren’t officially endorsed routes whatsoever, and are always referred to as separate pieces of infrastructure (e.g. “… cycleway”) by cycle-lobbying groups.
>>>>>>> Afterall, these “routes” probably shouldn’t be mapped at all, since they aren’t much use to most people; tagging them with ‘cycling’: ‘designated’ and ‘cycleway’: ‘shoulder’ would be sufficient enough. What do you think of this solution?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thanks in advance,
>>>>>>> Dongchen Yue
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Talk-au mailing list
>>>>>>> Talk-au at openstreetmap.org
>>>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Warm Regards
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ewen Hill
>>>>>> Internet Development Australia
>>>>> 
> 
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