[talk-au] [EXTERNAL] Re: Low quality road classification

Oisin Herriott (Insight Global Inc) v-oiher at microsoft.com
Thu Oct 21 10:53:04 UTC 2021


Hi all,

Thank you to Ewen for taking the time to review these ways and providing us with the excel sheet with all the relevant information to return to our edits and update them, and to Graeme and Michael for the insights and suggestions! We'll take the opportunity to update the team on the local characteristics that require a closer attention to detail and submit these individually rather than as a bulk upload. We're always looking to improve the quality of edits and the time people have taken to share their local knowledge and experience here is much appreciated.

Thanks again,
Oisin

-----Original Message-----
From: Oisin Herriott (Insight Global Inc) 
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2021 8:31 AM
To: talk-au at openstreetmap.org
Cc: Ewen Hill <ewen.hill at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [talk-au] [EXTERNAL] Re: Low quality road classification

Hi Ewen,

Nemanja is out on holidays for a couple weeks, so I'll jump in here. Thanks for taking the time to go through all these issues. We are still very much ready to proceed with the communities' decision on updates to tagging accordingly. In that regard we're glad to take the list of changes you propose in the form of a spreadsheet, or if you choose to use mapnotes/fixme's we can process them quick enough to have them resolved quickly. Feel free to reach out to me directly and we can get the team to prioritize this work.

In terms of how to improve the mapping, Graeme has summarized Michael's proposal below as follows - " if it's named on the Govt data, then highway=unclassified + access=public; if not named  highway=unclassified
+ access=private." Would this be the best approach going forward when SA has newly published Open datasets? Then local surveyors can adjust individual roads, as necessary.

Thanks again,
Oisin

-----Original Message-----
From: talk-au-request at openstreetmap.org <talk-au-request at openstreetmap.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2021 6:48 AM
To: talk-au at openstreetmap.org
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Talk-au Digest, Vol 172, Issue 37

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Low quality road classification
      contributions in SA via Microsoft Open Maps Team - contact point?
      (Ewen Hill)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 00:46:17 +1100
From: Ewen Hill <ewen.hill at gmail.com>
To: osm at 97k.com
Cc: "Nemanja Bracko (E-Search)" <v-nebrac at microsoft.com>, Graeme
	Fitzpatrick <graemefitz1 at gmail.com>,  OpenStreetMap
	<talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [talk-au] [EXTERNAL] Re: Low quality road classification
	contributions in SA via Microsoft Open Maps Team - contact point?
Message-ID:
	<CAF=SO8-HF_Vq2Lb3nXNYu9dWKXpie08a684fr7coPCudA5KF9A at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Nemanja,
   Thank you for improving the mapping of Australian roads and tracks. I have reviewed 1649 unclassified roads that have been added in South Australia and I believe over 1500 are private driveways, farm access or roads that have been decommissioned. I have significant concern that an active army barracks has had access=all created for all internal roads and there is the possibility of routing through the barracks. Similar to some biohazard facilities which are used for testing on crops. How would you like the list to be provided to you and how can we have these fixed urgently and finally how do we improve the mapping?

    During the bushfire season, we do not want a family thinking that a driveway that goes nowhere is the correct path to take and it would be fantastic to have this resolved in the next month or so.

Ewen

On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 22:48, cleary <osm at 97k.com> wrote:

> Nemanja
>
> Logic suggests that a road that is intended for public use would have 
> access from another public road. Even if I, or someone else, were to 
> drive in that area in the future to re-survey, it is unlikely that the 
> road identified as "Loutts Road" could be accessed without trespassing 
> on private property, suggesting it cannot really be a public road.
>
> In more remote parts of Australia, there are fewer people than in past 
> years. Whole towns have disappeared and smaller farms have been 
> consolidated into much larger ones, often operated by corporations. In 
> the process, roads that were once public have gradually been made 
> private and responsibility for maintenance falls to landholders rather 
> than government authorities. Quite a few roads that once were public 
> roads are now private.  I suspect that Loutts Road is in that 
> category.  One possibility is that only part of Loutts Road was 
> privatised  but the remaining section, although theoretically public, 
> is inaccessible. Another possibility is that, when it was made private, the name was intended to be removed.
> Although removed in the database from the section which provides 
> access from Parnaroo Road, the name for the more distant section might 
> have been accidentally left in the database.
>
> As it cannot be accessed, there is probably no harm in showing it as a 
> public road. But, on balance, I think access=private is more prudent.
>
> Thanks again for your thorough consultation.
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021, at 8:42 PM, Nemanja Bracko (E-Search) wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Thanks for the replies!
> > Before we start, please confirm one last thing.
> > Since we were able to find many cases like this:
> > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpr
> > ntscr.com%2F1b1ktyz&data=04%7C01%7Cv-oiher%40microsoft.com%7C6aa
> > fb7e6bda04edb68eb08d991759bc3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1
> > %7C0%7C637700756595701348%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMD
> > AiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=LW
> > LcaS4ps8RmS2Up%2BLUlyUBX7PZc3ay95W1fEhxLkAc%3D&reserved=0
> > what would you suggest to do in the shown example?
> >
> > Please note that it might be the case that we are unable to find any 
> > gates or barriers on the aerial imagery.
> >
> > I suppose that *access=public* is here just to emphasize that road 
> > is public, but it is an implicit tag.
> >
> > Thanks once again,
> > Nemanja
> >
> > *From:* Graeme Fitzpatrick <graemefitz1 at gmail.com>
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 13, 2021 5:20 AM
> > *To:* osm at 97k.com
> > *Cc:* OpenStreetMap <talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
> > *Subject:* Re: [talk-au] [EXTERNAL] Re: Low quality road 
> > classification contributions in SA via Microsoft Open Maps Team - contact point?
> >
> > Hi Nemanja
> >
> > Sorry, been busy packing to go away!
> >
> > Thanks for asking for further feedback :-)
> >
> > Yep, I'd go along with Michael - if it's named on the Govt data, 
> > then highway=unclassified + access=public; if not named 
> > highway=unclassified
> > + access=private.
> >
> > You'd probably also be able to add surface=unpaved to just about all 
> > of
> them.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Graeme
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 at 09:56, cleary <osm at 97k.com> wrote:
> > > Hello again Nemanja
> > >
> > > I response to your question, based on my experience, I still have 
> > > the
> view that unnamed roads in South Australia are not intended for public 
> access. Therefore, if mapped, they should be tagged as access=private.
> I don't think there would be any exceptions but, if there are, 
> individual mappers who survey such areas could later amend the access 
> tags and/or add names as appropriate.
> > >
> > > If the roads actually exist then I have no problem with mapping them.
> My particular concern is that failing to tag them as private could 
> endanger lives and livelihoods.
> > >
> > > Thanks for your diligence in following up this issue
> > >
> > > Michael Cleary
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, 12 Jul 2021, at 11:07 PM, Nemanja Bracko (E-Search) via
> Talk-au wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > I know it might be a vacation period for most people, but if you 
> > > > are still online, we would like to know which method is more 
> > > > acceptable
> for
> > > > the whole community before we proceed.
> > > >
> > > > I really appreciate any help you can provide.
> > > > Nemanja
> > > >
> > > > *From:* Nemanja Bracko (E-Search)
> > > > *Sent:* Monday, July 5, 2021 8:59 AM
> > > > *To:* Graeme Fitzpatrick <graemefitz1 at gmail.com>; Ewen Hill 
> > > > <ewen.hill at gmail.com>
> > > > *Cc:* OSM Australian Talk List <talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
> > > > *Subject:* RE: [talk-au] [EXTERNAL] Re: Low quality road
> classification
> > > > contributions in SA via Microsoft Open Maps Team - contact point?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks again for the constructive suggestions.
> > > >
> > > > My team will treat this very carefully and as a high priority.
> > > >
> > > > Two main questions are here:
> > > >  * Do you want us to correct the classification for every of 
> > > > these
> > > > ~2500 segments?
> > > >    * If the answer is Yes, please tell us what to do with the 
> > > > access tag. We will strictly follow your guideline. We would 
> > > > like to fix it
> in
> > > > one pass.
> > > >  * Do you want us to remove all these roads entirely from the map?
> > > >
> > > > Both options are completely fine with us since we have a list of
> these
> > > > segments already. In any of these two cases, we will process 
> > > > them
> one
> > > > by one. No bulk edits will be made.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Nemanja
> > > >
> > > > *From:* Graeme Fitzpatrick <graemefitz1 at gmail.com>
> > > > *Sent:* Sunday, July 4, 2021 2:26 AM
> > > > *To:* Ewen Hill <ewen.hill at gmail.com>
> > > > *Cc:* OSM Australian Talk List <talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
> > > > *Subject:* Re: [talk-au] [EXTERNAL] Re: Low quality road
> classification
> > > > contributions in SA via Microsoft Open Maps Team - contact point?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, 3 Jul 2021 at 17:28, Ewen Hill <ewen.hill at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The examples below could cause significant resentment to OSM 
> > > > > and I
> would suggest that all are private driveways that I can see. Perhaps 
> we need to stop updating, reset and look at how to improve the existing edits.
> An initial suggestion could be to set all new roads to private, add a 
> fixme and perhaps organise a map-roulette of these? Of the ten edits I 
> sampled, all ten appeared to be private driveways on private property.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am sure a few of us would be happy to discuss some of these
> changesets with the MS team so we can both learn a little more and see 
> how we can assist before large changesets.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.
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> >>
> > > > >
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> > > > >
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> >>
> > > >
> > > > Yes, I'd go along with Ewen here.
> > > >
> > > > The first of these examples "could" be a through public road, 
> > > > the second looks like two private driveways that join in the 
> > > > middle, &
> I'd
> > > > be amazed if the third isn't only a driveway.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > >
> > > > Graeme
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Talk-au mailing list
> > > > Talk-au at openstreetmap.org
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> > > > g7zW81sXuyWxTncIDYXyGE%3D&reserved=0 <
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> > >
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--
Warm Regards

Ewen Hill
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Subject: Digest Footer

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End of Talk-au Digest, Vol 172, Issue 37
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