[talk-au] [EXTERNAL] Re: Low quality road classification
Ewen Hill
ewen.hill at gmail.com
Fri Oct 29 23:24:00 UTC 2021
Hi Oisin,
Thanks for your email. As per the listing as well as service and
residential roads, I have altered the vast majority to highway=service,
service=driveway, access=private. I have also altered another 200 or so
roads that had other issues. I am now noticing the surface being removed
off tracks in Victoria e.g. https://osmcha.org/changesets/65812923/
What appears on the official government datasets may not be what is on
the ground so take your time and perhaps raise a comment or raise a
question in talk-au.
All the best
Ewen
On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 at 21:53, Oisin Herriott (Insight Global Inc) <
v-oiher at microsoft.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Thank you to Ewen for taking the time to review these ways and providing
> us with the excel sheet with all the relevant information to return to our
> edits and update them, and to Graeme and Michael for the insights and
> suggestions! We'll take the opportunity to update the team on the local
> characteristics that require a closer attention to detail and submit these
> individually rather than as a bulk upload. We're always looking to improve
> the quality of edits and the time people have taken to share their local
> knowledge and experience here is much appreciated.
>
> Thanks again,
> Oisin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Oisin Herriott (Insight Global Inc)
> Sent: Monday, October 18, 2021 8:31 AM
> To: talk-au at openstreetmap.org
> Cc: Ewen Hill <ewen.hill at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [talk-au] [EXTERNAL] Re: Low quality road classification
>
> Hi Ewen,
>
> Nemanja is out on holidays for a couple weeks, so I'll jump in here.
> Thanks for taking the time to go through all these issues. We are still
> very much ready to proceed with the communities' decision on updates to
> tagging accordingly. In that regard we're glad to take the list of changes
> you propose in the form of a spreadsheet, or if you choose to use
> mapnotes/fixme's we can process them quick enough to have them resolved
> quickly. Feel free to reach out to me directly and we can get the team to
> prioritize this work.
>
> In terms of how to improve the mapping, Graeme has summarized Michael's
> proposal below as follows - " if it's named on the Govt data, then
> highway=unclassified + access=public; if not named highway=unclassified
> + access=private." Would this be the best approach going forward when SA
> has newly published Open datasets? Then local surveyors can adjust
> individual roads, as necessary.
>
> Thanks again,
> Oisin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: talk-au-request at openstreetmap.org <talk-au-request at openstreetmap.org
> >
> Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2021 6:48 AM
> To: talk-au at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Talk-au Digest, Vol 172, Issue 37
>
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>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Low quality road classification
> contributions in SA via Microsoft Open Maps Team - contact point?
> (Ewen Hill)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 00:46:17 +1100
> From: Ewen Hill <ewen.hill at gmail.com>
> To: osm at 97k.com
> Cc: "Nemanja Bracko (E-Search)" <v-nebrac at microsoft.com>, Graeme
> Fitzpatrick <graemefitz1 at gmail.com>, OpenStreetMap
> <talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [talk-au] [EXTERNAL] Re: Low quality road classification
> contributions in SA via Microsoft Open Maps Team - contact point?
> Message-ID:
> <CAF=
> SO8-HF_Vq2Lb3nXNYu9dWKXpie08a684fr7coPCudA5KF9A at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Nemanja,
> Thank you for improving the mapping of Australian roads and tracks. I
> have reviewed 1649 unclassified roads that have been added in South
> Australia and I believe over 1500 are private driveways, farm access or
> roads that have been decommissioned. I have significant concern that an
> active army barracks has had access=all created for all internal roads and
> there is the possibility of routing through the barracks. Similar to some
> biohazard facilities which are used for testing on crops. How would you
> like the list to be provided to you and how can we have these fixed
> urgently and finally how do we improve the mapping?
>
> During the bushfire season, we do not want a family thinking that a
> driveway that goes nowhere is the correct path to take and it would be
> fantastic to have this resolved in the next month or so.
>
> Ewen
>
> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 22:48, cleary <osm at 97k.com> wrote:
>
> > Nemanja
> >
> > Logic suggests that a road that is intended for public use would have
> > access from another public road. Even if I, or someone else, were to
> > drive in that area in the future to re-survey, it is unlikely that the
> > road identified as "Loutts Road" could be accessed without trespassing
> > on private property, suggesting it cannot really be a public road.
> >
> > In more remote parts of Australia, there are fewer people than in past
> > years. Whole towns have disappeared and smaller farms have been
> > consolidated into much larger ones, often operated by corporations. In
> > the process, roads that were once public have gradually been made
> > private and responsibility for maintenance falls to landholders rather
> > than government authorities. Quite a few roads that once were public
> > roads are now private. I suspect that Loutts Road is in that
> > category. One possibility is that only part of Loutts Road was
> > privatised but the remaining section, although theoretically public,
> > is inaccessible. Another possibility is that, when it was made private,
> the name was intended to be removed.
> > Although removed in the database from the section which provides
> > access from Parnaroo Road, the name for the more distant section might
> > have been accidentally left in the database.
> >
> > As it cannot be accessed, there is probably no harm in showing it as a
> > public road. But, on balance, I think access=private is more prudent.
> >
> > Thanks again for your thorough consultation.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 14 Jul 2021, at 8:42 PM, Nemanja Bracko (E-Search) wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Thanks for the replies!
> > > Before we start, please confirm one last thing.
> > > Since we were able to find many cases like this:
> > > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpr
> > > ntscr.com%2F1b1ktyz&data=04%7C01%7Cv-oiher%40microsoft.com%7C6aa
> > > fb7e6bda04edb68eb08d991759bc3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1
> > > %7C0%7C637700756595701348%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMD
> > > AiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=LW
> > > LcaS4ps8RmS2Up%2BLUlyUBX7PZc3ay95W1fEhxLkAc%3D&reserved=0
> > > what would you suggest to do in the shown example?
> > >
> > > Please note that it might be the case that we are unable to find any
> > > gates or barriers on the aerial imagery.
> > >
> > > I suppose that *access=public* is here just to emphasize that road
> > > is public, but it is an implicit tag.
> > >
> > > Thanks once again,
> > > Nemanja
> > >
> > > *From:* Graeme Fitzpatrick <graemefitz1 at gmail.com>
> > > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 13, 2021 5:20 AM
> > > *To:* osm at 97k.com
> > > *Cc:* OpenStreetMap <talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
> > > *Subject:* Re: [talk-au] [EXTERNAL] Re: Low quality road
> > > classification contributions in SA via Microsoft Open Maps Team -
> contact point?
> > >
> > > Hi Nemanja
> > >
> > > Sorry, been busy packing to go away!
> > >
> > > Thanks for asking for further feedback :-)
> > >
> > > Yep, I'd go along with Michael - if it's named on the Govt data,
> > > then highway=unclassified + access=public; if not named
> > > highway=unclassified
> > > + access=private.
> > >
> > > You'd probably also be able to add surface=unpaved to just about all
> > > of
> > them.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > Graeme
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 at 09:56, cleary <osm at 97k.com> wrote:
> > > > Hello again Nemanja
> > > >
> > > > I response to your question, based on my experience, I still have
> > > > the
> > view that unnamed roads in South Australia are not intended for public
> > access. Therefore, if mapped, they should be tagged as access=private.
> > I don't think there would be any exceptions but, if there are,
> > individual mappers who survey such areas could later amend the access
> > tags and/or add names as appropriate.
> > > >
> > > > If the roads actually exist then I have no problem with mapping them.
> > My particular concern is that failing to tag them as private could
> > endanger lives and livelihoods.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for your diligence in following up this issue
> > > >
> > > > Michael Cleary
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, 12 Jul 2021, at 11:07 PM, Nemanja Bracko (E-Search) via
> > Talk-au wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > I know it might be a vacation period for most people, but if you
> > > > > are still online, we would like to know which method is more
> > > > > acceptable
> > for
> > > > > the whole community before we proceed.
> > > > >
> > > > > I really appreciate any help you can provide.
> > > > > Nemanja
> > > > >
> > > > > *From:* Nemanja Bracko (E-Search)
> > > > > *Sent:* Monday, July 5, 2021 8:59 AM
> > > > > *To:* Graeme Fitzpatrick <graemefitz1 at gmail.com>; Ewen Hill
> > > > > <ewen.hill at gmail.com>
> > > > > *Cc:* OSM Australian Talk List <talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
> > > > > *Subject:* RE: [talk-au] [EXTERNAL] Re: Low quality road
> > classification
> > > > > contributions in SA via Microsoft Open Maps Team - contact point?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks again for the constructive suggestions.
> > > > >
> > > > > My team will treat this very carefully and as a high priority.
> > > > >
> > > > > Two main questions are here:
> > > > > * Do you want us to correct the classification for every of
> > > > > these
> > > > > ~2500 segments?
> > > > > * If the answer is Yes, please tell us what to do with the
> > > > > access tag. We will strictly follow your guideline. We would
> > > > > like to fix it
> > in
> > > > > one pass.
> > > > > * Do you want us to remove all these roads entirely from the map?
> > > > >
> > > > > Both options are completely fine with us since we have a list of
> > these
> > > > > segments already. In any of these two cases, we will process
> > > > > them
> > one
> > > > > by one. No bulk edits will be made.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Nemanja
> > > > >
> > > > > *From:* Graeme Fitzpatrick <graemefitz1 at gmail.com>
> > > > > *Sent:* Sunday, July 4, 2021 2:26 AM
> > > > > *To:* Ewen Hill <ewen.hill at gmail.com>
> > > > > *Cc:* OSM Australian Talk List <talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
> > > > > *Subject:* Re: [talk-au] [EXTERNAL] Re: Low quality road
> > classification
> > > > > contributions in SA via Microsoft Open Maps Team - contact point?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, 3 Jul 2021 at 17:28, Ewen Hill <ewen.hill at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The examples below could cause significant resentment to OSM
> > > > > > and I
> > would suggest that all are private driveways that I can see. Perhaps
> > we need to stop updating, reset and look at how to improve the existing
> edits.
> > An initial suggestion could be to set all new roads to private, add a
> > fixme and perhaps organise a map-roulette of these? Of the ten edits I
> > sampled, all ten appeared to be private driveways on private property.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am sure a few of us would be happy to discuss some of these
> > changesets with the MS team so we can both learn a little more and see
> > how we can assist before large changesets.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.
> > openstreetmap.org%2Fedit%3Feditor%3Did%26way%3D955658598%23map%3D16%2F
> > -33.8579%2F137.7863&data=04%7C01%7Cv-oiher%40microsoft.com%7C6aafb
> > 7e6bda04edb68eb08d991759bc3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0
> > %7C637700756595701348%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQ
> > IjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=AyeZ9y18yo
> > 0y%2B4REyj8%2FNItaH1ckoT63DzXlWhcl4KE%3D&reserved=0
> > <
> > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.
> > openstreetmap.org%2Fedit%3Feditor%3Did%26way%3D955658598%23map%3D16%2F
> > -33.8579%2F137.7863&data=04%7C01%7Cv-oiher%40microsoft.com%7C6aafb
> > 7e6bda04edb68eb08d991759bc3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0
> > %7C637700756595711343%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQ
> > IjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=2TdtvMjIR%
> > 2FNrbusAC%2BrwHkwPOUh9Lp%2BV9pUjlIR%2FgII%3D&reserved=0>
> > <
> > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.
> > openstreetmap.org%2Fedit%3Feditor%3Did%26way%3D955658598%23map%3D16%2F
> > -33.8579%2F137.7863&data=04%7C01%7Cv-oiher%40microsoft.com%7C6aafb
> > 7e6bda04edb68eb08d991759bc3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0
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> > 2FNrbusAC%2BrwHkwPOUh9Lp%2BV9pUjlIR%2FgII%3D&reserved=0
> > <
> > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.
> > openstreetmap.org%2Fedit%3Feditor%3Did%26way%3D955658598%23map%3D16%2F
> > -33.8579%2F137.7863&data=04%7C01%7Cv-oiher%40microsoft.com%7C6aafb
> > 7e6bda04edb68eb08d991759bc3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0
> > %7C637700756595711343%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQ
> > IjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=2TdtvMjIR%
> > 2FNrbusAC%2BrwHkwPOUh9Lp%2BV9pUjlIR%2FgII%3D&reserved=0
> > >>
> > > > > >
> > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.
> > openstreetmap.org%2Fedit%3Feditor%3Did%26way%3D956458626%23map%3D17%2F
> > -34.50327%2F138.97656&data=04%7C01%7Cv-oiher%40microsoft.com%7C6aa
> > fb7e6bda04edb68eb08d991759bc3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7
> > C0%7C637700756595711343%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLC
> > JQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=Dd5ziM1x
> > f5QNLB4ULBEVyfc0br1To8XC1tDpgh5vpY8%3D&reserved=0
> > <
> > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.
> > openstreetmap.org%2Fedit%3Feditor%3Did%26way%3D956458626%23map%3D17%2F
> > -34.50327%2F138.97656&data=04%7C01%7Cv-oiher%40microsoft.com%7C6aa
> > fb7e6bda04edb68eb08d991759bc3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7
> > C0%7C637700756595711343%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLC
> > JQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=Dd5ziM1x
> > f5QNLB4ULBEVyfc0br1To8XC1tDpgh5vpY8%3D&reserved=0>
> > <
> > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.
> > openstreetmap.org%2Fedit%3Feditor%3Did%26way%3D956458626%23map%3D17%2F
> > -34.50327%2F138.97656&data=04%7C01%7Cv-oiher%40microsoft.com%7C6aa
> > fb7e6bda04edb68eb08d991759bc3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7
> > C0%7C637700756595711343%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLC
> > JQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=Dd5ziM1x
> > f5QNLB4ULBEVyfc0br1To8XC1tDpgh5vpY8%3D&reserved=0
> > <
> > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.
> > openstreetmap.org%2Fedit%3Feditor%3Did%26way%3D956458626%23map%3D17%2F
> > -34.50327%2F138.97656&data=04%7C01%7Cv-oiher%40microsoft.com%7C6aa
> > fb7e6bda04edb68eb08d991759bc3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7
> > C0%7C637700756595711343%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLC
> > JQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=Dd5ziM1x
> > f5QNLB4ULBEVyfc0br1To8XC1tDpgh5vpY8%3D&reserved=0
> > >>
> > > > > >
> > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.
> > openstreetmap.org%2Fedit%3Feditor%3Did%26way%3D956583567%23map%3D16%2F
> > -32.6304%2F138.1584&data=04%7C01%7Cv-oiher%40microsoft.com%7C6aafb
> > 7e6bda04edb68eb08d991759bc3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0
> > %7C637700756595711343%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQ
> > IjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=xw5cvV%2FE
> > ukmrDXHRkntdV87%2FiYIhUIaa0C6SsOtf2FQ%3D&reserved=0
> > <
> > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.
> > openstreetmap.org%2Fedit%3Feditor%3Did%26way%3D956583567%23map%3D16%2F
> > -32.6304%2F138.1584&data=04%7C01%7Cv-oiher%40microsoft.com%7C6aafb
> > 7e6bda04edb68eb08d991759bc3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0
> > %7C637700756595711343%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQ
> > IjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=xw5cvV%2FE
> > ukmrDXHRkntdV87%2FiYIhUIaa0C6SsOtf2FQ%3D&reserved=0>
> > <
> > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.
> > openstreetmap.org%2Fedit%3Feditor%3Did%26way%3D956583567%23map%3D16%2F
> > -32.6304%2F138.1584&data=04%7C01%7Cv-oiher%40microsoft.com%7C6aafb
> > 7e6bda04edb68eb08d991759bc3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0
> > %7C637700756595711343%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQ
> > IjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=xw5cvV%2FE
> > ukmrDXHRkntdV87%2FiYIhUIaa0C6SsOtf2FQ%3D&reserved=0
> > <
> > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.
> > openstreetmap.org%2Fedit%3Feditor%3Did%26way%3D956583567%23map%3D16%2F
> > -32.6304%2F138.1584&data=04%7C01%7Cv-oiher%40microsoft.com%7C6aafb
> > 7e6bda04edb68eb08d991759bc3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0
> > %7C637700756595711343%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQ
> > IjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=xw5cvV%2FE
> > ukmrDXHRkntdV87%2FiYIhUIaa0C6SsOtf2FQ%3D&reserved=0
> > >>
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, I'd go along with Ewen here.
> > > > >
> > > > > The first of these examples "could" be a through public road,
> > > > > the second looks like two private driveways that join in the
> > > > > middle, &
> > I'd
> > > > > be amazed if the third isn't only a driveway.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks
> > > > >
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> > > > >
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> > b2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637700756595721335%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ
> > WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000
> > &sdata=XgFwSE92CSom8SmxyDooMY9I87a4EDR%2FlzvM7WC3No0%3D&reserv
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> > microsoft.com%7C6aafb7e6bda04edb68eb08d991759bc3%7C72f988bf86f141af91a
> > b2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637700756595721335%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ
> > WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000
> > &sdata=XgFwSE92CSom8SmxyDooMY9I87a4EDR%2FlzvM7WC3No0%3D&reserv
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>
> --
> Warm Regards
>
> Ewen Hill
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> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Talk-au Digest, Vol 172, Issue 37
> ****************************************
>
--
Warm Regards
Ewen Hill
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