[talk-au] Usage of Openstreetmap at EMSINA

[stevea]

Some USA perspective:  because of where I was, happening to go to a funky little mountain organic food store and the proximity of this store to a "CalFire" station (sort of two of them, in a regional sense...CalFire being the California Department of Forestry, essentially the "state fire department" for California — in rural areas where there is no urban fire department), I once bumped into what I later figured out is a sort of "lieutenant general" in the state fire hierarchy of California — pretty far "up there" for the little village I was in.  White shirt, yellow-tin shield, name tag, official state car he was getting out of...  I mentioned OSM and what it is and he (I honestly think so) looked at me like he didn't know my full name, what I do on the project (a fair bit in the county we were both standing in) — but I have a feeling he knew exactly who I am — and even what I was about to ask him, but he acted very nonchalant.  Super nonchalant.  Very nice man.  I asked him what sort of GIS / mapping data the state uses for fire data:  parcels, "back roads," the sorts of gates where they have a key or a code (because they are the fire department) and it was like I was a guy holding a grenade and asking the combination to Fort Knox (where, supposedly, a great deal of gold is locked up).

Totally "we don't talk about our map data."  Just shut me down like that.  He knew what I was asking, and that I wanted to somehow get it into OSM and it was like "talk to the hand, son..." just a total wall of "yes, we might be the state and we might have 'open data' (sunshine) laws in California and I know you want me to talk about this stuff, but it ain't gonna happen."  He was as friendly as could be, gave me his business card and everything, but he shut me down so effectively it befuddled me like I've never been befuddled before.

Now, I know for a fact that CalFire has (and uses and updates and improves...) some serious, serious map data.  Could I, as a "simple citizen" have access to it?  Um, to what again?  What are you talking about?  It was surreal.  The answer was either "no" before I asked the question, or whenever I did ask a specific question it was "what are you talking about?" in such a skilled way I was derailed at every step.  This guy was a master of deception that such map data even exists (but of course it does) and he did it while smiling at me like the nicest guy at the grocery store, and even gave me his business card.  That guy is slick.  I was bamboozled totally.

Moral of the story is that I doubt OSM will ever have access to those fire / emergency geo data (and they are necessarily very high quality), and I don't know what wizardry by which that happens (as we ARE an "open data" (sunshine) state, with "public" data), yet this stuff seems locked up tighter than a bank vault.

So, it's interesting how all of this stuff works.  I have found that "some" bureaucracies (e.g. county GIS departments) KNOW there is going to be some overlap with "their" (our) data and OSM (indeed, I do keep such datasets fairly synced, especially as they update / improve).  But for the ultra-high-quality emergency-services geo data?  Those seem to be kept on the top shelf of a locked cabinet in a room I can't enter.  I suppose that's OK, but in some sense, it doesn't feel OK.  I mean, in a "public" sense, those are my (our) data.  Are they sensitive, and therefore out of my reach?  Wow, it sure seems like it, in a big, big way.

So, sometimes "we use theirs," and sometimes "they use ours" (I've seen and participated in the former and noticed that they participate in the latter) — which is cool, because over years, the data "get better towards each other" — but other times, "never the twain shall meet."  Quite intentionally.  I'm sure there are good reasons for this, and it's legal, of course.  And such people are trained to "talk about it" by "not talking about it" in that skilled way he did, it was amazing.