[talk-au] Usage of Openstreetmap at EMSINA

[Ewen Hill]

Hi Steve,
  Thanks for the interesting tale. Remember that if you only use the end
product through paper maps, mobile data terminals then it is a "black box
product" that is difficult to discuss, especially for an area commander
whose talents may be in other areas. The Calfire crews I have met have been
nothing short of open and accommodating

   Back in 2005/2006, one part of Australia provided 1275 local fire
brigades, base maps that they then went out and validated (e.g bridge
limits, forestry tracks and private tracks that can be used in a pinch),
and returned. Bridge limits are important if you are carrying 3000kg of wet
stuff on the back and 2wd/4wd access is also important.  This was then
compiled into paper and online maps and has grown significantly since.

  These maps have around 80 layers compiled from a lot of government data
(already available to OSMers) but has a number of layers that OSMers may
not need like brigade turn out areas, initial response tables where your
house may be a two truck initial response but the house next door maybe 4
trucks due to potential hazards. There is a lot more privileged and
operational data that is not suitable for distribution.

  You should probably be looking at the land management, water
infrastructure and transport departments who control the layers we OSMers
are interested in to get the waiver signed and copyright sorted.

Ewen

On Tue, 13 Sept 2022 at 18:57, stevea <steveaOSM at softworkers.com> wrote:

> Some USA perspective:  because of where I was, happening to go to a funky
> little mountain organic food store and the proximity of this store to a
> "CalFire" station (sort of two of them, in a regional sense...CalFire being
> the California Department of Forestry, essentially the "state fire
> department" for California — in rural areas where there is no urban fire
> department), I once bumped into what I later figured out is a sort of
> "lieutenant general" in the state fire hierarchy of California — pretty far
> "up there" for the little village I was in.  White shirt, yellow-tin
> shield, name tag, official state car he was getting out of...  I mentioned
> OSM and what it is and he (I honestly think so) looked at me like he didn't
> know my full name, what I do on the project (a fair bit in the county we
> were both standing in) — but I have a feeling he knew exactly who I am —
> and even what I was about to ask him, but he acted very nonchalant.  Super
> nonchalant.  Very nice man.  I asked him what sort of GIS / mapping data
> the state uses for fire data:  parcels, "back roads," the sorts of gates
> where they have a key or a code (because they are the fire department) and
> it was like I was a guy holding a grenade and asking the combination to
> Fort Knox (where, supposedly, a great deal of gold is locked up).
>
> Totally "we don't talk about our map data."  Just shut me down like that.
> He knew what I was asking, and that I wanted to somehow get it into OSM and
> it was like "talk to the hand, son..." just a total wall of "yes, we might
> be the state and we might have 'open data' (sunshine) laws in California
> and I know you want me to talk about this stuff, but it ain't gonna
> happen."  He was as friendly as could be, gave me his business card and
> everything, but he shut me down so effectively it befuddled me like I've
> never been befuddled before.
>
> Now, I know for a fact that CalFire has (and uses and updates and
> improves...) some serious, serious map data.  Could I, as a "simple
> citizen" have access to it?  Um, to what again?  What are you talking
> about?  It was surreal.  The answer was either "no" before I asked the
> question, or whenever I did ask a specific question it was "what are you
> talking about?" in such a skilled way I was derailed at every step.  This
> guy was a master of deception that such map data even exists (but of course
> it does) and he did it while smiling at me like the nicest guy at the
> grocery store, and even gave me his business card.  That guy is slick.  I
> was bamboozled totally.
>
> Moral of the story is that I doubt OSM will ever have access to those fire
> / emergency geo data (and they are necessarily very high quality), and I
> don't know what wizardry by which that happens (as we ARE an "open data"
> (sunshine) state, with "public" data), yet this stuff seems locked up
> tighter than a bank vault.
>
> So, it's interesting how all of this stuff works.  I have found that
> "some" bureaucracies (e.g. county GIS departments) KNOW there is going to
> be some overlap with "their" (our) data and OSM (indeed, I do keep such
> datasets fairly synced, especially as they update / improve).  But for the
> ultra-high-quality emergency-services geo data?  Those seem to be kept on
> the top shelf of a locked cabinet in a room I can't enter.  I suppose
> that's OK, but in some sense, it doesn't feel OK.  I mean, in a "public"
> sense, those are my (our) data.  Are they sensitive, and therefore out of
> my reach?  Wow, it sure seems like it, in a big, big way.
>
> So, sometimes "we use theirs," and sometimes "they use ours" (I've seen
> and participated in the former and noticed that they participate in the
> latter) — which is cool, because over years, the data "get better towards
> each other" — but other times, "never the twain shall meet."  Quite
> intentionally.  I'm sure there are good reasons for this, and it's legal,
> of course.  And such people are trained to "talk about it" by "not talking
> about it" in that skilled way he did, it was amazing.



-- 
Warm Regards

Ewen Hill
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