[talk-au] Dual naming in NSW

Tue Jun 6 07:06:50 UTC 2023

Hi Ian,

I cant actually find a FULL policy in NSW

https://www.planning.nsw.gov.au/policy-and-legislation/aboriginal-land-use-planning/nsw-dual-naming-policy

https://www.gnb.nsw.gov.au/aboriginal_place_naming/dual_naming

However sixmaps does find indigenous names and seems to use the reverse of Tasmania with the English name first then the slash then the indigenous name (search for wahluu)

Interestingly, in Tasmania the Aboriginal and dual naming layer in LIST has the indigenous name in the ‘name’ field and a separate ‘Dualname’ field for the extended naming. However the actual mapping shows only the dualname which abides by the actual policy. Not all indigenous named features are dual named.

https://maps.thelist.tas.gov.au/listmap/app/list/map?bookmarkId=884426 and click on the orange polygons

Maybe over time the dual naming will be replaced with indigenous names only, but only time will tell. In the meantime, in Tassie, I will stick with the options below to give data users the most options.

name=kunanyi / Mount Wellington

name:en=Mount Wellington

name:xtz=kunanyi

Does anyone know of examples overseas with dual naming?

Cheers - Phil

From: Ian Sergeant <inas66+osm at gmail.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2023 2:26 PM
To: Ben Ritter <benjaminaritter at gmail.com>
Cc: OSM Australian Talk List <talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Dual naming in NSW

I think including a "slash" character in a name tag is really ugly.  That's not the way that the GNB record them.  Unless someone can find some information on the ground that records it that way?

I understand the desire to not diminish either name when they are dual named, but I think it's wrong to think of alt_name as a "lesser" name.  Alternative means just that, it's an equally valid, but alternative name.  It's looks like exactly the type of scenario envisioned by the tag.

IMO it's a bad outcome to end up with multiple names in one tag separated by a slash.

Ian.

On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 at 12:45, Ben Ritter <benjaminaritter at gmail.com <mailto:benjaminaritter at gmail.com> > wrote:

I agree that in places where a joint name is in use, that should be documented as `name=Booraghee / Bradleys Head`as. From a data perspective, I think it is also useful to know that the english called it (in english spelling) `name:en=Bradleys Head` and the locals called it (in local romanised spelling) `name:aus=Booraghee`.

I have no great understanding of the languages involved, but I want to see it as "Booraghee / Bradleys Head" on most maps (because that's part of our cultural style, as documented in the quoted policy). On the other hand, when I hook up a routing text-to-speech engine, I'm going to have a much better time pronouncing the spelling of `name:en` and `name:aus`. Even better after someone in the know replaces the vague and non-specific `:aus` form with the actual language(s).

On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 at 09:27, Little Maps <mapslittle at gmail.com <mailto:mapslittle at gmail.com> > wrote:

This may depend on the specific place but in many places I believe Phil’s interpretation is correct and Andrew’s is inappropriate. Many places and reserves now have joint management or co-ownership, and dual/joint names. Joint names are not alternative names. John Roberts-Smith is John Roberts-Smith. He is not John Roberts and/or alt-name John Smith. The Rock Nature Reserve / Kengal Aboriginal Place is a legislated reserve. This is the legislated name, as described in the management plan and signposted on all new signs. Since OSM maps what is on the ground, we should include the entire joint name in the one name tag. We are not listing alternatives, we are presenting the entire, signposted, legal name in the one tag.

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